From Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de  Mon Jun 13 22:20:27 2011
From: Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de (Kai Zimmermann)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 00:20:27 +0200
Subject: [Swordbearer] Pack Animals
Message-ID: <4DF68D2B.3070702@gmx.de>

Hello everybody.

So, I?ve finally given in to my old-school urges and decided to run a 
West Marches style game using Swordbearer. (I picked the game up a year 
or two ago, but there was a shameful lack of roleplaying in my life for 
all that time.) So, I?m finally posting something to the list! Yay.

I got a question about pack animals. A mule can transport an abstract 
load - i.e., one load of firewood, or one load of treasure, or of food, 
etc; a mule with a cart can transport two loads, say, one of wood AND 
one of food. How do I handle smaller stuff? All those food bags, water 
skins, sleeping rolls etc add up if characters are preparing for a 
longer hike. I take it that, according to the rules, I can just lump all 
that stuff together as one load of expedition gear, right? Which means 
if someone wants to add a single additional item that does not fit that 
description (say, one item of treasure or one sword), a second mule (or 
a cart) is needed. Correct? Same goes for humanoid bearers, I understand.

I was tempted to rule that bearers, mules etc. can each carry ten items, 
just like other characters, but then I realized that the ten item limit 
works together with the social status rules for limiting purchases and 
possessions ... Nice.

So, if anybody is still reading the list - comments or suggestions?

Kai
-- 
"It's those cursed rabbits!"
(Alfred Lord Tennyson)



From whateley23 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 13 22:32:14 2011
From: whateley23 at yahoo.com (c.l. vermeers)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 15:32:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Swordbearer] Pack Animals
In-Reply-To: <4DF68D2B.3070702@gmx.de>
References: <4DF68D2B.3070702@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <181683.17626.qm@web113401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

In my opinion, this is an area that is supposed to be subject to GM 
interpretation. If, in the GM's opinion, the load should be able to be carried 
by a mule, then it can be carried. If not, it can't. It's not a situation that 
is subject to hard and fast rules such as one might find in D&D4E or something. 
The "load" rules are meant, I think, to be flexible.

c. vermeers



________________________________
From: Kai Zimmermann <Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de>
To: Swordbearer Mailing List <swordbearer at rpgreview.net>
Sent: Mon, June 13, 2011 3:20:27 PM
Subject: [Swordbearer] Pack Animals

Hello everybody.

So, I?ve finally given in to my old-school urges and decided to run a West 
Marches style game using Swordbearer. (I picked the game up a year or two ago, 
but there was a shameful lack of roleplaying in my life for all that time.) So, 
I?m finally posting something to the list! Yay.

I got a question about pack animals. A mule can transport an abstract load - 
i.e., one load of firewood, or one load of treasure, or of food, etc; a mule 
with a cart can transport two loads, say, one of wood AND one of food. How do I 
handle smaller stuff? All those food bags, water skins, sleeping rolls etc add 
up if characters are preparing for a longer hike. I take it that, according to 
the rules, I can just lump all that stuff together as one load of expedition 
gear, right? Which means if someone wants to add a single additional item that 
does not fit that description (say, one item of treasure or one sword), a second 
mule (or a cart) is needed. Correct? Same goes for humanoid bearers, I 
understand.

I was tempted to rule that bearers, mules etc. can each carry ten items, just 
like other characters, but then I realized that the ten item limit works 
together with the social status rules for limiting purchases and possessions ... 
Nice.

So, if anybody is still reading the list - comments or suggestions?

Kai
-- "It's those cursed rabbits!"
(Alfred Lord Tennyson)

_______________________________________________
Swordbearer mailing list
Swordbearer at rpgreview.net
http://rpgreview.net/mailman/listinfo/swordbearer_rpgreview.net
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From lev at rpgreview.net  Tue Jun 14 09:45:29 2011
From: lev at rpgreview.net (lev at rpgreview.net)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 19:45:29 +1000
Subject: [Swordbearer] Pack Animals
In-Reply-To: <4DF68D2B.3070702@gmx.de>
References: <4DF68D2B.3070702@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <6c66f9a355da22a0f203c1f5b72c25c1.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>

> Hello everybody.

Hi Kai,

> So, I???ve finally given in to my old-school urges and decided to run a
> West Marches style game using Swordbearer.

A good choice :)

> I got a question about pack animals. A mule can transport an abstract
> load - i.e., one load of firewood, or one load of treasure, or of food,
> etc; a mule with a cart can transport two loads, say, one of wood AND
> one of food. How do I handle smaller stuff?

The rules state (Heritage edition, p21) that "one or more of the ten items
could be an animal.... Pack animals, wagons etc can carry one specific
type of cargo or load, but these can include general goods related to a
specific skill or activity".

In which case "an adventurer's mule" would include the sort of the things
that "an adventurer" would carry.

> longer hike. I take it that, according to the rules, I can just lump all
> that stuff together as one load of expedition gear, right? Which means
> if someone wants to add a single additional item that does not fit that
> description (say, one item of treasure or one sword), a second mule (or
> a cart) is needed. Correct? Same goes for humanoid bearers, I understand.

Not really; I would rule that all of this could fall under "adventurer's
gear". As long as it's in the bounds of reality e.g. from Wikipedia

"The median weight range for a mule is between about 370 and 460 kg (820
and 1,000 lb).[4] Although it depends on the individual animal, an army
mule can "carry up to 72 kg and walk 26 km without resting."[5] In
general, a mule can be packed with "dead weight" of up to 20% of its body
weight, or approximately 90 kg (200 lb).[6] The average equine in general
can carry up to approximately 30% of its body weight in "live" weight,
such as a rider.[7] However, while a few mules can carry live weight up to
160 kg (350 lb) the superiority of the mule becomes apparent in their
additional endurance.[6]"

> I was tempted to rule that bearers, mules etc. can each carry ten items,
> just like other characters, but then I realized that the ten item limit
> works together with the social status rules for limiting purchases and
> possessions ... Nice.

That's true, but it's for ownership not carrying, although the church
scold may receive a quizzical eyebrow on why she's carrying the gold
embossed holy book of the one-true faith of the magic carrot..

"It's the High Priestesses! She wants me to take it to temple!" etc.

Hope this helps,


Lev




From atroxfang at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun 14 21:42:52 2011
From: atroxfang at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Sustare)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 14:42:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Swordbearer] Pack Animals
In-Reply-To: <6c66f9a355da22a0f203c1f5b72c25c1.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
Message-ID: <348409.55155.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Great answer, Lev!

When my father-in-law was with the Army in WWII, they were still using mules for transport. They had two great advantages over trucks... they did not need gasoline, and when one was worn out, you could eat it.? --dennis

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From Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de  Tue Jun 14 22:10:15 2011
From: Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de (Kai Zimmermann)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:10:15 +0200
Subject: [Swordbearer] Pack Animals
In-Reply-To: <6c66f9a355da22a0f203c1f5b72c25c1.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
References: <4DF68D2B.3070702@gmx.de>
	<6c66f9a355da22a0f203c1f5b72c25c1.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
Message-ID: <4DF7DC47.5040204@gmx.de>

Am 14.06.2011 11:45, schrieb lev at rpgreview.net:

>>  So, I've finally given in to my old-school urges and decided to run a
>>  West Marches style game using Swordbearer.
>
> A good choice :)

When I saw the lovely, crunchy table for overland travel I knew it was 
the right system. Also, you need danger for a good game of that type, 
and the combat system sure makes characters' life interesting and dangerous.


> In which case "an adventurer's mule" would include the sort of the things
> that "an adventurer" would carry.
>  [...]
> I would rule that all of this could fall under "adventurer's
> gear".

Put like that, I can certainly see that treasures, looted weapons and 
ten kinds of flotsam and jetsam are "adventurerer's gear". Yeah, that's 
a good call.


>>  I was tempted to rule that bearers, mules etc. can each carry ten items,
>>  just like other characters, but then I realized that the ten item limit
>>  works together with the social status rules for limiting purchases and
>>  possessions ... Nice.
>
> That's true, but it's for ownership not carrying

Yes, certainly. That's what makes it such a nice mechanic.

> Hope this helps,

It did help, so thanks a lot.

-- 
"It's those cursed rabbits!"
(Alfred Lord Tennyson)



From Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de  Tue Jun 14 22:12:57 2011
From: Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de (Kai Zimmermann)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 00:12:57 +0200
Subject: [Swordbearer] Pack Animals
In-Reply-To: <348409.55155.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <348409.55155.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4DF7DCE9.9050401@gmx.de>

Am 14.06.2011 23:42, schrieb Dennis Sustare:
> Great answer, Lev!
>
> When my father-in-law was with the Army in WWII, they were still
> using mules for transport. They had two great advantages over
> trucks... they did not need gasoline, and when one was worn out, you
> could eat it.

Now that is a good point. I wonder how many characters you could feed 
for a day on an average mule. I mean, this situation is bound to arise 
sooner or later in-game.

Kai
-- 
"It's those cursed rabbits!"
(Alfred Lord Tennyson)



From Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de  Fri Jun 17 23:17:49 2011
From: Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de (Kai Zimmermann)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 01:17:49 +0200
Subject: [Swordbearer] Starvation
Message-ID: <4DFBE09D.2000805@gmx.de>

Hello all.

Has anyone here run a Swordbearer campaign where the availability of 
food played a big role? If so, how did you deal with it? I'm looking for 
a way to determine when characters become incapacitated due to lack of 
food and how long they can keep crawling through the wilderness on an 
empty stomach.

I toyed with a number of house rules; the best I could think of is 
simply having players penalize Mass, Strength, Agility and Intelligence 
(players' choice) by an increasing amount of points at the end of each 
day without food: 1 point after one day of starving, 2 more points after 
the second day, 3 more after the third and so on, until the first stat 
reaches 0.

This keeps things simple and would incapacitate an average character 
(all four stats at 11) after 9 days. Supposing the characters undergo 
some strenuous activities that seems about right for a baseline.

Half-rations, lack of water and other stuff would increase or decrease 
the time to starvation. Death from starvation should take a while 
longer, perhaps after (Mass plus Strength) days total. Dying of thirst 
will go very much faster.

So. Tell me about your house rules, if you have any, and let me know if 
the above seems reasonable to you.

Kai
-- 
"It's those cursed rabbits!"
(Alfred Lord Tennyson)



From lev at rpgreview.net  Sat Jun 18 10:19:05 2011
From: lev at rpgreview.net (lev at rpgreview.net)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:19:05 +1000
Subject: [Swordbearer] Starvation
In-Reply-To: <4DFBE09D.2000805@gmx.de>
References: <4DFBE09D.2000805@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <96007fd107af2263b1c46156f62dbc23.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>

> Hello all.
>

Hi Kai,

> Has anyone here run a Swordbearer campaign where the availability of
> food played a big role? If so, how did you deal with it? I'm looking for
> a way to determine when characters become incapacitated due to lack of
> food and how long they can keep crawling through the wilderness on an
> empty stomach.
>

Well, I guess the first rule is how much of an issue should it be in a
game. In D&D, for example, trivial Create Food and Water spells make it
almost a non-issue in most situations. In Swordbearer however, it can be
more of an issue, and the game system seems to appeal for crunchy
realism... The following is for humans; other species (especially
non-mammals) will have significant divergence from these.

1) A character requires their Strength in abstract food units per day. If
you like, each point of Strength = c1,000 kj. If a character does not
receive this, their Mass will decrease by 1 point for every shortage of
food units equal to their current Mass.This represents burning off "excess
fat".

e.g., Portly Joe has a Strength of 10, and a Mass of 15. Whilst travelling
through the wilderness, he steels his will and lives on minimal supplies
of beef jerky, dried fruit and nuts and only consumes 5 food units per
day. After 3 days (shortfall of 5 units per day) his Mass decreases by 1,
and will continue to do so until it reaches the character's Strength.

2) The quantity of food required varies according to activity level. As a
general rule of thumb, a sedentary character only requires 50% as much
food, whereas an active character would require 50%. Note that "active"
here is being used in the medieval context of a fantasy setting. Most
people in a contemporary developed country are sedentary. Most of us
probably eat too much (really?).

e.g., After the third day Portly Joe feels a little light-headed as he
reaches the first waypoint in his journey. He decided to spend a day
resting. His food requirements are only 5 units, so he suffers no
shortfall.

3) If the character's Strength is already higher than their Mass, or their
Mass is reduced to the character's Strength and they still are not
receiving sufficient food, then the character begins to starve. Again
using the food unit system, the same applies, except now effective
Strength, effective Agility and effective Intelligence. Note that a
character's reduced Strength is the metric used for the amount of food
units required.

e.g., The less Portly Joe, after some months of travelling deep in the
wilderness, is down to Strength 10, Mass 10. He's actually looking quite
fit rather than Portly. But the lack of excess body fat is now going to
take its toll. After two days on half-rations, he loses an effective point
of Strength, Intelligence and Agility. He's light-headed, weakened and a
bit clumsy. After another couple of days, he loses another effective point
in each of those characteristics... And then, in three more days (remember
the loss slows down), another point...

Things are looking grim for the less than Portly Joe. If he doesn't find a
real supply of food soon, he's in trouble.

Anyway, that's entirely off the top of my head. It looks like it would
work, and it seems somewhat accurate in terms of the gradual decline that
a person without food faces.

Hope this helps,


Lev




From lev at rpgreview.net  Sat Jun 18 23:30:07 2011
From: lev at rpgreview.net (lev at rpgreview.net)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:30:07 +1000
Subject: [Swordbearer] Starvation
In-Reply-To: <96007fd107af2263b1c46156f62dbc23.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
References: <4DFBE09D.2000805@gmx.de>
	<96007fd107af2263b1c46156f62dbc23.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
Message-ID: <f7ccde3374c027f7fd8c368876ec9f14.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>

> Well, I guess the first rule is how much of an issue should it be in a
> game. In D&D, for example, trivial Create Food and Water spells make it
> almost a non-issue in most situations. In Swordbearer however, it can be
> more of an issue, and the game system seems to appeal for crunchy
> realism... The following is for humans; other species (especially
> non-mammals) will have significant divergence from these.

I was thinking also that water should be very significant - more so than
food. One can survive quite some time, albeit in a weakened state, without
food... But when water is missing then you're in serious trouble and
quickly.

With water the character requires their Mass in water units per day, which
is roughly 150ml per unit. If a character does not receive this then they
suffer a loss of dehydration. For every points of dehydration greater than
their Mass the character suffers an equivalent effective loss distributed
across Strength, Intelligence, and Agility.

In general a character can survive a quite a few weeks without food.
Without water however, survival becomes questionable in a matter of days.
The rules - rather quickly thought out and possibly full of glaring errors
- do simulate this.

Something that a particularly realistic GM may introduce - if even for
narrative purposes - when character's are effectively down to half their
normal intelligence due to hunger or thirst... then the hallucinations
start.

All the best,


Lev




From Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de  Mon Jun 20 19:07:28 2011
From: Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de (Kai Zimmermann)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:07:28 +0200
Subject: [Swordbearer] Starvation
In-Reply-To: <96007fd107af2263b1c46156f62dbc23.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
References: <4DFBE09D.2000805@gmx.de>
	<96007fd107af2263b1c46156f62dbc23.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
Message-ID: <4DFF9A70.6080105@gmx.de>

Am 18.06.2011 12:19, schrieb lev at rpgreview.net:

> Well, I guess the first rule is how much of an issue should it be in a
> game. In D&D, for example, trivial Create Food and Water spells make it
> almost a non-issue in most situations. In Swordbearer however, it can be
> more of an issue, and the game system seems to appeal for crunchy
> realism... The following is for humans; other species (especially
> non-mammals) will have significant divergence from these.

"Crunchy realism" is not quite what I'm going for - in that case I would 
probably choose another system (the 10 item limit and the Social Status 
system are not exactly crunchy nor exceedingly realistic, but they are a 
big part of why I like this system). What I want for my game is a strong 
component of resource management.

> 1) A character requires their Strength in abstract food units per day. If
> you like, each point of Strength = c1,000 kj. If a character does not
> receive this, their Mass will decrease by 1 point for every shortage of
> food units equal to their current Mass.This represents burning off "excess
> fat".
 >
> 2) The quantity of food required varies according to activity level. As a
> general rule of thumb, a sedentary character only requires 50% as much
> food, whereas an active character would require 50%. Note that "active"
> here is being used in the medieval context of a fantasy setting. Most
> people in a contemporary developed country are sedentary. Most of us
> probably eat too much (really?).
 >
> 3) If the character's Strength is already higher than their Mass, or their
> Mass is reduced to the character's Strength and they still are not
> receiving sufficient food, then the character begins to starve. Again
> using the food unit system, the same applies, except now effective
> Strength, effective Agility and effective Intelligence. Note that a
> character's reduced Strength is the metric used for the amount of food
> units required.

Nice, but perhaps a bit too crunchy for what I'm looking for and, I 
think, too detailed to mesh well with the rest of the Swordbearer 
system. But thank you very much for the input! It is greatly valued.

Kai
-- 
"It's those cursed rabbits!"
(Alfred Lord Tennyson)



From Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de  Mon Jun 20 19:15:54 2011
From: Hans_Zarkov at gmx.de (Kai Zimmermann)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:15:54 +0200
Subject: [Swordbearer] Starvation and Water
In-Reply-To: <f7ccde3374c027f7fd8c368876ec9f14.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
References: <4DFBE09D.2000805@gmx.de>	<96007fd107af2263b1c46156f62dbc23.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
	<f7ccde3374c027f7fd8c368876ec9f14.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
Message-ID: <4DFF9C6A.1030400@gmx.de>

Am 19.06.2011 01:30, schrieb lev at rpgreview.net:

> I was thinking also that water should be very significant - more so than
> food. One can survive quite some time, albeit in a weakened state, without
> food... But when water is missing then you're in serious trouble and
> quickly.

Absolutely. The margin is so small - 3 to 4 days with activity in not 
too warm weather - that it is far less of a rules problem than food. 
Reduce by a day for hot or exceedingly cold weather or very strenuous 
activity, add a day for characters with a high mass, and you're in the 
ballpark.

> Something that a particularly realistic GM may introduce - if even for
> narrative purposes - when character's are effectively down to half their
> normal intelligence due to hunger or thirst... then the hallucinations
> start.

Oh yes. Also looking forward to mighty adventurers getting devoured by a 
pack of wild dogs because they are too dazed and weak from hunger and 
thirst.

Kai
-- 
"It's those cursed rabbits!"
(Alfred Lord Tennyson)



From lev at rpgreview.net  Tue Jun 21 08:54:12 2011
From: lev at rpgreview.net (lev at rpgreview.net)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:54:12 +1000
Subject: [Swordbearer] Starvation
In-Reply-To: <4DFF9A70.6080105@gmx.de>
References: <4DFBE09D.2000805@gmx.de>
	<96007fd107af2263b1c46156f62dbc23.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>
	<4DFF9A70.6080105@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <12e9d30113696ffd74ad5f9b4e9d89de.squirrel@webmail.rpgreview.net>

> Am 18.06.2011 12:19, schrieb lev at rpgreview.net:
>
> Nice, but perhaps a bit too crunchy for what I'm looking for and, I
> think, too detailed to mesh well with the rest of the Swordbearer
> system. But thank you very much for the input! It is greatly valued.
>

Well I think crunch works well with SB. But for a very simply non-crunchy
version simply say that a character's Strength, Agility and Intelligence
are halved and they start suffering hallucinations after Strength*days and
they die after Strength*2 days. Which is still about the same result.




