From runequest Wed May 5 12:25:47 1993 From news@glorantha Wed Apr 28 17:19:11 1993 Return-Path: Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05806; Wed, 28 Apr 93 17:19:10 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA29470; Wed, 28 Apr 93 17:18:30 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27088; Wed, 28 Apr 93 17:17:54 +0200 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 17:17:54 +0200 Message-Id: <9304281517.AA27088@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 28 Apr 1993, part 1 Precedence: junk Status: OR This is the automated Daily RuneQuest Digest. Send submissions only to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the ~Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. -Henk Langeveld -- Send Submissions to: Enquiries to: The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Maintainer: Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM --------------------- ~From: SPB1@VMS.BRIGHTON.AC.UK (Ghost Dancer) ~Subject: Cults & how to release them Message-ID: <9304272022.AA08643@Sun.COM> ~Date: 27 Apr 93 15:01:00 GMT I'd just like to put down a few thoughts about how cults are released, these thoughts might be seen as fence sitting but I think that they do go some way to satisfying the percieved needs of both sides of the argument. In reading the recent mass of mail concerning cults two things seem to be most desired. 1) AH desire to keep cults tied to regional supplements. This seems to me to make excellent sense from a marketing point of view. AH have two important roles to play in RuneQuest. First to support the existing players by releasing as much quality material as possible, this unfortunately must be a trade off as quality will ineviably reduce the quantity. Secondly to encourage new players to take up RuneQuest, this second purpose benefits us all as the more people that play the more money and time AH will put into supporting RQ. From the point of view of new players it is far more encouraging if they can buy the rules and one regional pack and get started without having to buy half a dozen more extra rules sets to play. Without the oppertunity to try the game they are likely to say stuff that and go back to D&D or whatever, remember that RQ probably gets most of its players from other games rather than first time gamers. In many respects this is a strong case for RQIV to be strongly set in Glorantha as this mythos has always been RQ's greatest asset, but it must always be possible for people to easily play outside of Glorantha. 2) Players, and that includes me, want detailed cult write ups all in one place. This makes game sense as under the present system I need a car to transport all of my RQ stuff to the club for a nights game. So how do we address both of these needs? What I suggest is to publish the cults with regional packs but print them as a seperate book rather than in the main volume. This way they can easily be filed together in a ring binder or folder. This also has benefits over the CoT, CoP idea in that you can just take along the cult details you need rather than having to take along a whole book just for one obscure cult that one of the players happens to be a member of. This idea also works well for other sections of any releases as the regional descriptions could also be filed together with any scenarios seperate again. I would also like to strongly suggest the idea of each cult having a seperate one page players intro to the cult as I find it difficult to conceive the idea that an adventurer would instantly have in depth knowledge of a cult just because he/she was a Lay or Initiate member. A handy handout giving the cult mythos and a few general notes without all the Rune level and associated cult details would be very useful as each player could have a copy of their cults details to file alongside their character sheet for easy reference. At the moment I try to provide such reference material but find that the time it can take to produce often detracts from the time I have to develope other campaign material. Well that's my 10p's worth for now. ._ /! \ Alternative /-!-/ Realities Jarec / ! \ Games Club e-mail: SPB1@VMS.BTON.AC.UK --------------------- ~From: awr0@aberystwyth.ac.uk ~Subject: RQ2/RQ4 Message-ID: <9304271630.AA13358@uk.ac.aber.fronta> ~Date: 27 Apr 93 18:30:57 GMT Maybe RQ4 should provide a simple core of rules, similar to RQ2 in flavour and then supply a number of optional rules to complicate and make tthe game more 'realistic'. In this way you could quite easily solve everybodies little fantasies. Adam Reynolds 'Ha, I take 1 point of damage, that leaves me on 15 hp. What do you mean it had Blade Venom 16 on it?!' -> Thank God for Healers!! --------------------- ~From: tsl@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Tim Leask) ~Subject: Format for RQ Material Message-ID: <9304280008.3459@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> ~Date: 28 Apr 93 15:07:57 GMT The obvious format for RQ material isn't lay flat binding or hard bound books it's CD-ROM ! :-) I could have everything ever printed on RQ readily accessible. Using the latest multi-media technology we could have recordings of Greg Stafford and Ken explaining the finer points of Glorathan lore. We could have live action video demonstrations of those tricky game mechanics. An interactive video demonstrating the visibility and utility of magic. A seminar series for God Learners detailing all the creatures of Glorantha. We could relive great moments in Gloranthan history - the rising of the Red Moon, the Destruction of Gbaji, the Dragonkill War, the fall of Whitewall, the Battle of Moonbroth. What about it Ken ? Tim ================================================================================ Department of Computer Science /*\__/\ "Money is something you have in University of Melbourne < \ case you don't die tomorrow." Parkville, Vic., 3052, AUSTRALIA \ _ _/ Gordon Gecko. Phone: +61 3 282 2439 \| -- e-mail: tsl@cs.mu.oz.au ================================================================================ --------------------- ~From: nrobinso@sirius.UVic.CA (Neil Robinson) ~Subject: Boldhome Message-ID: <69648.nrobinso@sirius.uvic.ca> ~Date: 28 Apr 93 03:20:42 GMT Those of us unfortunate enough to miss Convulsions '92 (a long trip on a student budget) got to read about it in Tales. I got the highlights on the Boldhome session, but it merely whetted my appetite to learn more about it. Does anyone know if the handouts are somehow available? I am willing to pay shipping and any other costs for a legitimate version. RE: Reprinting RQ II versus RQ IV I'm one of the lucky with a large stash of RQ II, so I'm into some more new stuff, perhaps with some old information as filler if needed. The current revival of my favourite game is amazing, and I barely have enough time to keep up reading this list - just the way I like it. And lastly, a question (hopefully simple) When you critical an opponent with a spear, do you also impale him? Versus an opponent with less than 9 points of armour protection (the average opponent), the impale is more deadly than the critical. Neil Robinson | "Never underestimate the power of human nrobinso@sirius.uvic.ca | stupidity." - L. Long 2996 Dysart Rd. Victoria B.C. V9A 2K2 (604) 383-5094 --------------------- ~From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) ~Subject: Slaves of Prax, and other Heresies Message-ID: <930428064144_100270.337_BHB18-1@CompuServe.COM> ~Date: 28 Apr 93 06:41:44 GMT Hi again! _________________ for Adrian Brownlow: PRAX: Your Praxian sympathies have earned my contempt. The Praxians are a monstrous people, who lack all social graces. Their slaves have a terrible time, and are NOT adopted into the Khan's tribe. If they were Praxians themselves, they wouldn't want to join another beast's tribe. If they weren't, what chance would they have of proving themselves worthy of initiation? (cf. Borderlands scenario 7 for an example of how tricky everyday Praxian skills can be for outsiders to emulate). They have no chance of social advancement and live miserable lives; their happiest days are when they can shovel the dung of the captured beasts of their tribe (the only time they get any contact with them). Note that Players' Book Genertela p.13 "War" implies Praxians take women and children as slaves when they raid. Now there, you might have a chance. A slave-wife who bore the khan a child might well be adopted; a child who had never been initiated into another beast-Waha cult is also in with a chance if he shows promise. But for grown men, whether of Waha or foreign cults, there is no real chance of advancement. Tales 6 p.38 n.12 says Praxians "always" treat their fellow people with respect, even their slaves. If you believe that, you'll believe anything! Praxians are a vile, brutish, bestial race, and the sooner we bring them into the Light of the Red Moon, the better. Remember, too, the Morocanth slavers... LUNARS: Yup, the Romans are a fine model here. The old Dara Happans would have treated slaves more like Cato the Elder recommended (pure property). Later Republican innovations like latifundiae (slave-run estates, cf. River of Cradles p.44, penultimate paragraph) and manumission would be Lunar novelties. Certainly some slaves have risen to positions of authority among the Red Emperor's ministers (which causes no small amount of distress to the old nobility). I remember reading somewhere that some Lunar satraps are attempting slowly to enslave their entire populations, by one means or another. Gives them better control over their populace. I'd suggest that, as all Lunar Citizens are considered lay members of Moonson, all Lunar slaves might be considered lay members of Danfive Xaron; he is, after all, depicted in chains. This gives them a place in Lunar society (however peripheral) and a chance of advancement. I doubt the Dara Happans stopped to think about who might be god of slaves. PENT: Yes. The sketchy stuff in Genertela Book p.62 confirms your speculations. Again there is adoption for slave women who bear children to the tribe; men get it rather worse, though! Since the position of a "free" woman in Yelmic society is so terrible (treated as chattel property; not allowed to talk to other women without a man present; etc.), slavery isn't such a big problem for them. ORLANTHI: See KoS p.244, and the Cults of Prax appendix I mentioned earlier. Just about says it all, really. The Anglo-Saxon bondsman is a good model; there are certainly opportunities for thralls if they are taken into a generous clan. But most aren't. ___________________ THE KINGDOM OF WAR The Kingdom of War "IS" a Humakti heresy: war for the sake of war. Think of the march of the Unspeakable (but almost Unstoppable) Turk through the Balkans; the Beast-Masked Armies of Granbretan coursing across Europe; all those Robert E. Howard "army on the move" stories. Landscapes like something out of Hieronymus Bosch or the Great War. "One-dimensional slavering evil style enemies" just about sums them up. "Today Loskalm, tomorrow the world!" Not the cult of Wachaza (too specifically located), but they might have something similar. My good friend Mike Hagen suggested that "a hundred gods of war" might mean that the KoW has an organised army, with specialist units, that would be unfamiliar to the feudal Western armies it faces. Their unit insignia would be taken for religious signs (as in the Lunar Army: Cult of the Granite Phalanx, et al.). ______________ for David Ingram: Yup, you're dead right about voluntarily taking on extra geases as a way of showing God how keen you are. I'd encourage it, if I was a Sword of Humakt (or whoever). It's like Orlanth initiates learning the "poetry": they don't have to, but it looks good if they do. _______________ For L.P. Williams: It's a bit cheap taking the three Religions of the Book as your example of how similar cults can become! The cult write-up is a useful format, but is not an exhaustive description. At its best, it shows one form of the religion in depth. At its worst, it pleases nobody by offering generalities where specifics are needed (see the Cult of Maran Gor in Tales 6 for an example of this). I would always take a cult write-up with a pinch of salt and another of imagination; work out what things the cult does that your culture would need access to, and then decide how they are implemented. Use Hero Cults (cf. Chalana Arroy in River of Cradles, or Humakt in Tales 5) to create local minor variations; rewrite the cults to suit yourself if you're setting your campaign out of the way. The Storm Bull was almost killed fighting the Devil (River of Cradles p.153)! How can you think this means he wasn't (or shouldn't be) affected by Chaos? What you need to do is take Arkat's option seriously: the best way to fight Chaos may be to become a Troll and get access to Kyger Litor's Counterchaos rune spell. "He who fights monsters, becomes a monster," and all that jazz. Takes a Storm Bully to think it makes sense (mind you, Trolls do get neat beer-guts built-in...). That's all for now, Nick Brooke --------------------- ~From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder) ~Subject: RQ2 Sartar map Message-ID: ~Date: 28 Apr 93 08:49:44 GMT RQ2 I played RQ2 for years, I had a variety of cult members and I loved the game. I don't dislike it's simplicity, I liked that, I do think RQ3 got over burdened with volume, but it also made some huge steps forward. RQ2 previous experience was crap. The fact that all RQ2 cults were basically the same and accessed the same magic meant everyone was the same. RQ2 was lovely but flawed, RQ3 was boring but in many ways better, RQ4 should aim to be better and lovely, with optional rules so that RQ Lite falls out by ignoring the extra stuff. I still think the GURPS example of Basic and Advanced Combat is a good one. ElfQuest was really RQ3, but in a more focussed and tight publication. I already had bought RQ3 but I would have just used Elf Quest if I hadn't bought that second. Anyone got Elf Quest, do they agree? (Nice game too) Sartar Yes Ken I can buid my own world, I have no problem with that, I've done that for years. BUT, Sartar is a core place that we all know is Gregged, I am not going to write my version of Sartar and then get Gregged (or Lismeldered?). Teshnos, Ditali, Ramalia, Heortland, Pent, Elder Wilds, Lunar Heartlands, all these places I have no problems with what we got in WoG and away I go. I also dream of writing something publishable, to do that in Sartar is difficult without knowing who and what is where, in your writer's guidelines you say "Know Glorantha Cold.." Not that I criticise you, I think Sun County was wonderful and the basis of my best campaign in years, I really loved River of Cradles and I await Shadows and Dorastor with bated breath. Without the love and care you show RQ would be dead, we all know that, thank you. :-) SMILE It's getting better! -------------------------------------------------------------------- tzunder@cix.compulink.com.uk How Illuminating! -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- ~From: pvanheus@cs.uct.ac.za (Peter van Heusden) ~Subject: RQ 2, other things Message-ID: ~Date: 28 Apr 93 12:53:01 GMT > From: L.P.Williams@newcastle.ac.uk (L.P. Williams) > Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 19 Apr 1993 > Message-ID: > Date: 27 Apr 93 12:00:29 GMT > > > > Why does everyone berate RQ2 for its simplicity. That's its charm. As for everyones > just the same they're not. It's the flavour of RQ2 that made it so popular. Each > cult is different in its identity. Similar? so are Christianity, Juadism , > Islam, etc... . All the cults live in the same world and they're worshippers > have essencially the same requirements. I do not berate RQ2 for its simplicity. IMHO it has holes... I'm sorry, but I find the RQ2 books no pleasure to read, I find the skill catagory mods unrealistic, and I don't like the fact that everything is defined in terms of Glorantha. (Consider that here (South Africa) RuneQuest costs a sizeable amount, and the Gloranthan supplements are simply unavailable. Anyway, no system should be restricted to one world.) As for simplicity, IMHO, RQ3 is simple. Of course, my gaming history has been AD&D->Rolemaster->RuneQuest. I have said before and I say again that I managed to run a RQ3 demo game with one set of dice so fast that my players barely noticed the mechanics. So, what's the problem? (And I am by no means an experienced DM) > > On RQ2's saleability- Ever noticed how many > > Wanted RQ2 supplements .... > > adds you see knocking about. No. Ever noticed how many "Wanted Glorantan supplements" you see. > > If you want a realistic game then buy Harnmaster it's as good as you get. > > Ir you want a game that is versatile with more flavour than a garlic sausage > pizza then play RQ2. Play RQ 3.5 (my version) > > I have read RQ4 draft and although it is an improvement on RQ3 it is over > complicated. The charm of RQ2 was the single goal- Further your chosen religion Here I agree. I can't get to grips with RQ4. > (and kill trolls -whoops racial hatred! Try taking the garden yer wimps!!) > Not all this profession rubbish. Rolemaster springs to mind. Yuck!! 'scuse me? And what if I don't want to be a religous bigot? If this was the real point of RQ, I would not play it. Religious warefare is too real for me. The point of RQ is fantasy. Fantasy to a certain extent emulates reality. Reality has professions - you need to do some work. Anyway, they are only starting skill sets. Peter > From: dickmj@essex.ac.uk > Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 26 Apr 1993, part 1 > Message-ID: <9304271145.AA02320@serdlm1> > Date: 27 Apr 93 11:45:20 GMT > > I noticed a lot of talk about large scale battles recently in the > digest. Well I'm currently trying to rig together a RQ Mass Combat > system. It's sort of like WarHammer, but don't let that put you off!!! > > Anyway, if anyone is interested in helping me playtest this or if > anyone out there has got a system of their own, please drop us a line. > Or better still, how's about discussing it on the digest? > > The only TRUTH is DEATH > > -Arganth > As I've said in private mail, this is a good idea, IMHO. Peter ******************************************************************************* Peter van Heusden One man one newsfeed CS3, UCT, Cape Town, RSA "How fast are you? How dense?" pvanheus@cs.uct.ac.za - Rudy Rucker --------------------- ~From: ICECW@asuvm.inre.asu.edu ~Subject: Cults of Prax question Message-ID: <01GXJBSBQTUQ90MVN7@asu.edu> ~Date: 28 Apr 93 00:19:41 GMT This may not be the right place for this question, but why does the original Cults of Prax come with two different covers? I have one with a map and the title in big red letters on the cover, and one with a picture of man and a woman and an ape-thing (baboon?) on a white back- ground. Likewise with Snakepipe Hollow. I have one with a full-color cover with a broo on it, and one with a white cover and colored pencil drawing of a different broo? Anybody have any insight? Which are the more rare? Anyway, I have been monitoring the discussion about which version of RQ is best, and I thought I'd add my two cents! I love RQ2--it's simple, it's nifty, it's elegant, and most importantly, it's PLAYABLE! I've tried to understand RQ3 for years, but it just doesn't appeal to me or make sense! RQ4--I don't know! I read the new modifications, but they seem to be attempting to improve a system I don't have much faith in. So, to AH and Chaosium, publish what you want, reprint what you want, but as for myself (and it seems many others :-), we'll play RQ2! ****************************************************************** icecw@asuacad or icecw@asuvm.inre.asu.edu I don't know. ****************************************************************** --------------------- ~From: seh0@aberystwyth.ac.uk ~Subject: Answering a few questions on Cernein Message-ID: <9304281356.AA22086@deca.aber.ac.uk> ~Date: 28 Apr 93 15:56:45 GMT To Tom Zunder: About Cernein having a Rune Priesthood Cernein fills the role of the protector of the forest. To this end, the cult has a Rune Lord category to protect against invasion and artificial destruction of the forest. Against this, there is also the element whereby the Rune Priesthood protects the forest from natural ravages. The Priests maintain the forest, expand the groves, etc. As for development to RQ3/4....at the moment, time does not allow me to try and convert them, maybe in June. To someone I forgot the name of: About the Wild Hunt I simply took the name from Celtic mythology, there really wasn't anything more to it than that. The Hunt might be a better term to avoid confusion with Gagarth, I guess, but I wouldn't like to suggest that my own surname should be immortalised in Gloranthan history :-> To Henk Langeveld: The suggestion about installing the cults somewhere is noted, and I have no objections. As I said, it was a big mail. However, I'll be adding more stuff in time, and I would like that to go through the Digest as well as being installed somewhere, OK? Mail me on the subject, do you want me to re-send the material, or whatever.....hope to hear from you soon. To the rest of the world: Buffalo Stephen M Hunt Better Red Than Dead