From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 11 Jul 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Dayzatar and less Message-ID: <9407081739.AA07856@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 17:39:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5079 Sandy "What this net needs is more ^Ms in its diet" Petersen states, in a flat mono(myth)tone, concerning Der Official Dayzatar Cult: > Only minor alterations are needed for the Teshnan version: Zitro Argon. Where _did_ I put that list of execution methods? };-) Personally, I consider my project to produce a variant Dayzatar cult in _Peloria_ only temporily shelved... > Folk who die in the worship of Dayzatar go to dwell forever in > heaven. Who ever said it was a sure thing, eh, Sandy? > Dayzatar is the Source of Truth, and is always > alsoassociated with the Light Rune. > Some monasteries are complete little communities and supportthemselves. How, exactly? It's not likely Monks do physical labour, much less till the land, so they're not likely to be self-sufficient after the fashion of some earthly monasteries. > Monks of Dayzatar are free of all cult responsibilities.They > may ignore any calls to service, former geases, andresponsibilities > beyond those of seeking the truths of Dayzatar. > Most sky and fire gods are friendly to this cult. Their priestsmay > join this cult upon retirement from active duty. What happened to that Extensive Qualifying Period, huh? > Alex Ferguson, bitter foe o' the Monomyth: > >But was it _really_ true? That it "worked" for a while, and in a > >limited area, merely shows that it was a useful working model, or > >approximation, within that domain. > 'Twas never claimed to be more than a useful approximation. > For all your nitpicking, the Monomyth concept still works better than > any other way of trying to understand the Gloranthan universe. The > fact that the myth had "bugs" in no way invalidates the basic idea. Firstly, the Monomyth _isn't_ a myth (or at least, wasn't until after the GLers), so claiming that it has "mythic truth" is suspect. When I hear statements like "the Monomyth is true", I don't so such think "clearly, it's actually false", but rather "in what sense do you mean, _true_?" To what are you claiming it's a useful approximation to? a) The History of the Godtime. It Really Happened this way, honest, guv. The Jrurgian Monomth, as it were. b) The myths people told about the Godtime, based on some form of a). Possibly how the Jrusteli regarded it? c) The myths people told about the Godtime, their Deeply Ingrained Psychological Need to believe such things: the Campbellian Monomyth, Jung, the earthly "science" of mythography. d) The observable state of the Godplane, as it exists currently, or either immediately before or after the GLers got to it. And before I'm accused of trying to pin you on the chaotic horns of a False Tetralemma, I don't assert the above to be exhausive, or mutually exclusive. > It's like saying that the fact that certain biological facts > are difficult to explain means that the whole theory of organic > evolution is bunk (an argument I've heard from creationists). Or a bit like saying this phlogiston theory business has one or two minor bugs in it. > I'm > sure that the God Learners and subsequent philosophers spent years of > their life arguing about this or that detail of the myth (much as we > are doing). In any case, Things like what caused the Darkness is a Minor Detail? What we're doing is only comparable to the above if _we accept_ the Fundamental Truth of the Monomyth. > >Just like turn of the century earthly "scientific" mythography did > >the same for us? Like Lewis Spence "proving" that Ancient Eygpt must > >have gone through a shamanistic phase of worship? > Exactly. Clearly novel use of the word "true", then. > Since we know that the Tolat special night is only one night long > [...] this lets us learn some conclusions about Alex's > own sexual habits. Hey, if you're having sex on the Godplane, one night could encompass the proverbial Mythic Age, no? (An unsporting correspondant would perform a similar calculation for Sandy's "pleasurable" hypothesis, and send appropriate condolences to Mrs. P. ;-) ;-P ) > I suggested that the Hrestoli not be as sexist as the Rokari. Alex > wonders: > >Why? Rokarism isn't all that long-ago an "offshoot" of Hrestolism. > So that Western PCs will be able to experience a more dynamic > imbalance between Rokarism and Hrestoli. You seem to have abandonned "Glorantha-level" arguments several messages ago on this thread, but I'll press on regardless. Note that you're not merely suggesting the Hrestoli be somewhat less sexist than the Rokari, you're suggesting they have _institutionalised_ egalitarianism (of the sexes), while Rokari have institutionalised sexism. > If all the Malkioni (except > minor heretics) are rabid sexists, then there is less to chose > between them. I've already suggested that they have _different_ caste systems for women; I just happened to put 'em the sensible way round, unlike my various detractors. ;-) I think there's already a great deal to choose between the two; they might be at each other's throats (theologically speaking) but we need hardly make them dualistic opposites. > Jeez, Alex, I thought you'd be the Last Person to argue > against the expansion of a Rune to mean more than the original narrow > definition. Hunger means Undeath, and it means Hunger, and it > probably means some other stuff, too, of interest primarily to > Chaotic philosophers. Expansion, schexpansion. It's been _moved_, and more to the point, moved to a less meaningful place. For example, does Gark possess the "Hunger" rune? I doubt it, but he would certainly have possessed Undead. And as you yourself have mused, not all "hungry" cults have Hunger; Hunger is seemingly reserved for Nasty Chaotic Hungry Types. Messy-messy-messy. And all because Greg and his little helpers couldn't think of a more amusing runic association for Krasht, so they nicked (not Nicked, just nicked) the hitherto-sensible Undead rune. Hey, I almost sounded like Devin, just then, didn't I? ;-) > I should > think a line of flying Shades would be an excellent technique to > break up a cavalry charge, seeing as 98% of the horses charging you > get Demoralized as they come, and 10% either drop dead or collapse in > their tracks. Now work out how many close-order infantry could could have nobbled for the same cubic metrage of Shade. Alex. --------------------- From: Akira19893@aol.com Subject: Codex #2 Message-ID: <9407081404.tn159423@aol.com> Date: 8 Jul 94 18:04:44 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5080 Greetings All! Jim Catel here, just got Codex #2 on Wednesday and have only had a chance to give it a brief looking over, but from what I have read so far it looks fantastic - kudos to all involved. John Bridges cover art is excellent - thats one seriously mean looking crew of orlanthi. Mike - thanks for the kind words for Rick. A quick question that maybe Mark Sabulaskas, Mike or Nick Brooke could answer. In the Timeline for Fronela there are two entries for Syranthir, one in 719 - Syranthir of Jorri and one in 725 - Syranthir Forefront. Are these two different Syranthirs or the same person? Those of you who haven't subscribed to Codex, I would highly recommend doing so. TTFN, Jim Catel --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 08 Jul 1994 Message-ID: <9407081905.AA12813@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 8 Jul 94 07:06:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5081 Mark Foster says >being a soldier, warrior etc. is only "fun" in movies and games. I said that war doesn't have to be glorified to be enjoyable. Mark, understandably confused, asks me to please elaborate. I will steal examples from various sources in an attempt to try to explain. The spaghetti Western "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" takes place during the American Civil War. The heroes of the story are classic PC-style-adventurers. The war is portrayed as pointless and bloody. The "PCs" get caught up in the middle of it, get imprisoned, escape, join the Union Army, etc. all in an attempt to accomplish their own goals, which have little to do with the war. Essentially, the war acts as the adventure's "world". Akira Kurosawa's filim "Kagemusha" not only does not glorify war, it does not even particularly glorify the Samurai lifestyle. Yet the plot in which the low-born hero is caught up is fascinating, and closely linked to Takeda Shingen's campaigns. The final battle is portrayed more like a natural disaster than a military conflict. A war or other similar situation can be an exceedingly interesting place to run an adventurer, even if your goal is to save lives rather than take them, or if the war takes place "outside" the main adventure. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Holy Country stuff. Message-ID: <9407081800.AA07931@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 18:00:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5082 MOB: > Maybe 'No-shit' is how the heavily-accented Heortland refugees who've > swarmed into the city recently say it; no doubt this annoys the > Matriarch and her axe-maidens And annoyed Babs initiates aren't a big enough incentive to Correct Pronunciation? > Jim Chapin (hey, did you play Leonidas at Convulsion?) reminds: That would have been a certain Rune Czar^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HNomadic Interactive Shaman, if memory serves. > Hey Jim, where you the guy who played Leonidas at Convulsion? I'm sure I just covered that. ;-) Philip Juffs: > Mermen Cities. > Most of the mermen breath air every hour or so, yet in River of Cradles it makes > refrence to mermen cites off the cost of Corflu, out past the shallow shelf. How > do the mermen get an air supply when there in there cities? I picture cities with air-filled domes, a la tacky Marvel comic featuring Atlantis, and Lemura (I think that was the other one). How do they obtain the air? Urm, dunno. Giant snorkel plants? Giant artifacts to extract air from water? Hyrdoponics? > Or am I getting the wrong end of the trident. Owchowchowch! > P.S. What does a skullbush plant look like, and can you smoke one? Sandy detoxes: > _I_ can't smoke one. It's against my religion. How about you? Really? Even if it's No Fun, anyway? Alex --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: AiG on spirit magic Message-ID: <9407081801.AA07940@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 18:01:19 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5083 Kevin Rose: > Dave Cutler: Spell collecting for Divine Cults. Three minor problem with > this concept (IMO): First, You are exploiting a bug, not a feature. AiG > properly fixes this so spell spirits are a one-use sort of critter. AiG wishes. I don't think this is a bug at all; that temples have spirits associated with them, for amongst other things, spell teaching is fairly well established. That they'd get "used up" by teaching one person a spell seems fairly broken, itself. However, I don't think it's such a great idea to try and circumvent the Spellteaching route in favour of a more "shamanisic: approach, at least in "civilised" areas like Sartar and Heortland. If there's a problem with teaching it by this route, perhaps we need to examine the mechanics of the spell, or the rate at which rune magic is reinstalled (: thanks, Joerg) in general. > This > is a good thing as otherwise all the cults become very similar in terms of > spirit magic (They have them all.) I agree that they should stick to "cult" spirits, and hence "cult" magics, as a rule, though. > Sorcerer Familars as justification for Sorcerer Fetches: > Familiars are a crutch. I have never had a PC want to create a familiar > (Other than a Nymph, but that is sort of a special case) He had the same idea as Nikolos is the RQ3 Magic Book, did he? Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: KB'd. Message-ID: <9407081819.AA07978@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 18:19:56 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5084 Steve Stair: > I'd like to get y'all's reaction to how the extra damage from magic > affects knockback. For example, is the (Spirit) Bladesharp, (Divine) Strike, > and (Sorcery) Damage Boosting damage figured in to the knockback effect? I'd favour something like the GURPS model: added damage from sharpness doesn't add to KB, extra "impact" (force behind swing) does. Harder to do exactly in RQ, though. Sandy: > That's how I play it. It's more exciting and interesting to > have the glowing magic sword send opponents flying like a kick in a > cheap karate movie. I always go for the superficially-neat cheap > trick in my own games. Thank you, Sandy. Confessing your problem is the first step to letting us help you with it. ;-) Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Time and the LBQ. Message-ID: <9407081851.AA08008@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 18:51:31 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5085 Graeme Lindsell): > >but I don't see why people would believe it to be "not time", > >unless they have some reason to. > Why? people can believe some really strange things. But they generally have _a_ reason (or more), however weird. > As for as > I can see, they don't believe it to be "not time" (ie they think > it's causal), but not Time ie the Gods were unbound. Why they > believe Time should bind gods is another matter. But rather closer to the one I just asked. Why would people suppose pre- History to be acasual, or timeless, if they had a single historical, or apparently historical account of it? One thing this suggests to me is that the Theyalan belief in Time may result from the 1st Council's own reconciling of distinct, if not contradictory, myths. That this seemingly _didn't_ form a single causal thread further suggests that the monomyth doesn't not fully or properly reflect such distinct beliefs. (Since the Monomyth itself is basically causal.) > >Except that it would limit resurrectees to those linked to the Fire rune, > >and extend to (possibly only) those who'd been dead for more than seven > >days. > Please explain how Arkat and Sheng Seleris were bound to the Fire rune. Arkat wasn't _resurrected_ by the LBQ, though. I don't know if he has a connection, as such. SS's link to the fire rune is fairly logical, what with him being a Pentan shaman, who're wont to do things like "swear upon the Burning Lance". > A short side question: the Malkion, son of a Storm God and a Water Nymph > stuuf. Is this actually believed by the West? I can't see them saying their > Prophet was descended from a False God. It seems to me that this is another > God Learner concept, perhaps an attempt to put Malkion into the Monomyth, > where he could be more easily manipulated. Or more straightforwardly, just the theists trying to annoy 'em. The first "combined" myths were the Theyalabns, after all. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Spot the Healer. Message-ID: <9407081909.AA08031@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 19:09:12 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5087 David Cake quibbles with my intentional misgreement with Devin: >>> In any case, I wonder if your analysis of 1% of the population being >>> Healers and only 3% of those Healers being Priestesses stacks up with >>> what has been presented. > I agree. The 3% is conspicuously high. > Conspicuously low, according to Sandy and me. 1% may be too high though. > Remember all CA worshippers are professional Healers. I don't think this is entirely true, but it is fair to say that CA initiates are fairly dedicated types, and aren't all of the "body" of worshippers. But nor would I count all Orlanthi (or whomever, according to region) as such, so I don't think that figures such as 1 in 5 are worth more than a quick belly laugh. Let's recall that High Healer is actually rather hard to qualify for, compared to other priestly positions. > Basically, I think that there must be some separation between god and > cult, and the god must not be omnipotent. Otherwise we have no heresy, no > corrupt priests. Or rather we just claim that they are all illuminated, which > is almost as limiting. I like religions to be a bit less reliable than CoP > implies. I'm not sure CoP _does_ imply any particular reliability to religions: it says what the particular cult believes, and would like for it's initiates to be like, not necessarily exactly how things must be, precisely. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Crack shade Forelorn Hope units. Message-ID: <9407081915.AA08038@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 19:15:21 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5088 Elias Kadri: > [Sandy and Alex disputing the effectiveness of elementals > against cavalry] > Don't forget that horses are _much_ less tolerant of the unknown > than humans are. I would think a horse (even a cavalry-trained horse) > confronted by a shade would be pretty likely to panic, regardless of > the magical effects. This argument is specific to shades, though, i.e., concerns the nature of the attack, not how it's delivered. In general, "artillery", or magic which affects a large area per go, or is nasty, but inaccurate, will be proportionately more effective against close-order infantry than cavalry. If elementals are the mass-combat wonder-weapon Sandy suggests, any cavalry in possession of a clue will train against them so's they're not _totally_ flummoxed. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex) Subject: Boardom. Message-ID: <9407081946.AA08066@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 8 Jul 94 19:46:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5089 Clay Luther: > Well, FYI, the great horned boar has roamed Dragon Pass for time > immemorial. They are extremely rare indeed, since it is a curious > mutation which produces them. The boar's tusks simply do not grow > right, but instead grow back along the jaw, through the jowls, and > eventually bursting through the skin just below the ears. Would this make it impossible for him to open his jaw, as it'd effective bolt the lower mandible onto the skull? Alex. --------------------- From: 100270.337@compuserve.com (Nick Brooke) Subject: Islamic Malkioni Message-ID: <940708200102_100270.337_BHL58-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 8 Jul 94 20:01:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5090 > How difficult would it to insert Malkion in place of Muhammed? Not at all. It's already been done, in our most basic sources: try GoG. The creed of the Men of the West runs: "There is no God but the Invisible God, and Malkion and Hrestol are his Prophets." This is why I'm rather calm about the "discovery" of Islamic parallels in Malkionism. On the other hand, adding a bit more exotic chic w/things like the Jrusteli Jihad, my Carmanian Dualists, extreme Legalism, etc. doesn't hurt Malkionism at all. But I don't think there are many who'll be seeing the West as more Arabian than Arthurian. > If you assume that cash is readily available in Glorantha, there is no > problem. If you have to pay with a heifer, you get a whole scenario... Wonderful: inspiring stuff! ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: david_baur@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil (David Baur) Subject: Women, spirits, CAs, Kudos Message-ID: <9407082039.AA04079@Sun.COM> Date: 8 Jul 94 05:30:30 GMT X-RQ-ID: 5091 Women, spirits, CAs, Kudos 7/8/94 1:28 PM Women stat modifications ===================== Nils Hammer (X-RQ-ID: 5060) writes: "Since the subject of women in role playing games is still around I thought I should mention that I have revised my idea of appropriate stats for rolling female characters, which we discussed some time ago. I had forgotten about the Victorian era circus-woman who lifted elephants. Ok, she only lifted one elephant at a time, but I find it noteworthy. Women are -2 SIZ. As others have noted here they often do more work than men, so maybe +1 CON. Any other stat differences should be by culturally derived stat training." One other stat mod I've seen in other games is boosting the DEX. To balance out the -2 loss, it should be fair to give a +2 gain. I propose as you say with also a +1 DEX. As to your comments about females, how about the Lunarian Razoress. She has notoriety. I can't say much more on this as many of my playerrs are on the Dailies and I would not want to give them too much of a heads up, even though they have encountered 3 strong adventuresses. Spirit spells at temples ================== Joerg Baumgartner (X-RQ-ID: 5065) quoting Devin Cutler (-:5054) >> No, the shrine does not have spell teaching, but the Priest who tends the >> shrine (a PC) knows the True name of the Bladesharp and knows Summon Spell >> Spirit and Control Spell Spirit, so in a sense the shrine to which he is >> affiliated teaches that spell. >Ok, but then there is the next problem: the priest has fought the spirit >down to zero MP. How does this sorry remains of a spell spirit initiate >spirit combat? >And: is the Summon Spell Spirit the priest uses a divine or a spirit >spell? If it is a spirit spell, where did he get it? Our group interprets it as a cult spell spirit who as a group are used to this kind of teaching and will teach one cult member it's spell as the summoning priest bids. Chelana Arroy Healings =================== Joerg Baumgartner (X-RQ-ID: 5065) writes: "I'd expect that CA Healers prefer to treat wounds over resurrecting casualties, and they prefer to treat diseases sent by Chalana's arch-foe Malia over treating wounds on people who (viewed from a CA POV) deserve some punishment for their violent ways." Yea verily! I also expect them to treat wounds more mundainly, if permitted; more like a hospital. This is part of the skills they learned as they progressed through their religion. This is why they have a first aid, treat disease, and plant lore skill. I also agree with Joerg's form of triage, but this only occurs when there are choices to make. I also look at their shrines as a form of a hospitol with the priestess as doctors, the initiates as RNs, and the lay members as candystripers (So to speak). Visible Spell Effects =============== Thanks Sandy (X-RQ-ID: 5067), for your thoughts. We've been having similar discussions on and off for awhile. I think I've heard most of the same cons you have as well as some of the pros (Elias agrees with you whole heartedly). We are in the reconcider phase and I passed your response out to the others in my group. As to an idea being mocked (I got one of those locally), I add that that is usually an indication of a closed or small mind (not knowing who you refer to OH). These forums are for expanding and sharing ideas instead of closing of the flow of imagination which is a main element in any RPG. (< Stepping of the soapbox before it breaks under the weight of emotion > Ahem) Bye for now