From: owner-rq-rules-digest To: rq-rules-digest@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Subject: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #97 Reply-To: rq-rules Errors-To: owner-rq-rules-digest Precedence: bulk Content-Return: Prohibited Return-Path: owner-rq-rules-digest RQ Rules Digest: Thursday, 16 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 097 RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to say "Yeah, I agree." Those who do will be lynched. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. RQR: will be prepended to it. 3. Do not engage in a point-by-point analysis or rebuttal of another person's message. It is too confusing for others to follow, qualifies as nit-picking, and it usually leads to flame wars. 4. There is no number 4. TABLE OF CONTENTS Nils Weinander RQR: Magic systems Brandon Brylawski RQR: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #93 Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox. RQR: RQ3 panicking Brandon Brylawski RQR: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #96 Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox. RQR: Power ideas Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox. RQR: RQ3 Critique Loren Miller administrivia owner-rq-rules@hops.wharton. 50 messages GAWINTER@aol.com RQ Rules Digest: V1 #87 Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox. RQR: Work for my next playtest of Steve's Steven E Barnes RQR: Power ideas Alex Ferguson Runepower, assorted flavours. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 15:34:14 +0100 Subject: RQR: Magic systems Joerg writes (in a very sensible posting): >Yes, this leads to a proliferation of magic systems, or at least co-existing >system variants. So what? That makes magic a more personal affair. As >long as the game effects are clearly defined, a GM can handle this. A >proposal that the newby GM ought to start with only one of the variants >and introduce the others slowly would help, along with a description of >the type of culture that uses these approaches, and suggestions how >outsiders in other societies (the classical witches, frex) can provide >foreign-style magic. Sounds too generic? I don't think it's too generic. In fact if we start looking at magic rules from the POV of a gaming world instead of extrapolating game world views of magic from the rules I think that there are lots of different ways to do magic. The rules should be flexible enough to allow a lot of variations here. I think the rules should contain descriptions of the effects (spells) you can do with personal magic of various degrees, with divinely gifted magic etc. and then describe a couple of 'local applications'. The Glorantha book can then describe how the magic meta-rules are mapped to Gloranthan cultures, e.g. in the theistic cultures in central Genertela personal magic is taught by the cults, the shamanic hsunchen use helper spirits etc. What I am getting at is a meta-system for magic which can be _easily_ tailored to a culture. You shouldn't need to do anything more than specify how magic is gained and used and which effects/spells are appropriate for the culture. /Nils W ------------------------------ From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:43:49 -0500 Subject: RQR: Re: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #93 Regarding POW vs. POW or mp vs. mp in making resistance rolls and spirit combat, I offer again an excerpt from BrandonQuest: - ------- SPIRIT COMBAT. Spirit Combat is performed like regular combat, except that one's attack is equal to POW x 5%, and one's defense is equal to POW x 5%. An attack is reduced one level in effect by every level of defense achieved by the defender. For example, A special attack versus a normal parry becomes a normal attack in effect. A character being attacked who does not actively defend uses only half this percentage. Having low magic points decreases your skills : for every full 25% of mps cast/lost, decrease effective POW by 2 for purposes of spirit combat _and_ for purposes of overcoming spells (see magic). The results of a spirit attack are as follows : Fumble (only on 00) : Attacker loses one action next round and D6 mps. Normal Success : Defender loses D6 mps. Special : Defender loses 2D6 mps. Critical : Defender loses all remaining mps, and is overcome. A character with zero mps who must lose mps in combat is overcome. An attacker who overcomes his target may knock him unconscious, possess him, or afflict him. - ----- Brandon ATTACK SPELLS A spell that is targeted at another being must overcome the target's resistance to have effect. After the spell is cast successfully, match POW versus POW in a resistance roll, adjusting POW for low mps as per spirit combat. If successful, the spell works. Criticals, specials, and fumbles have no extra effect. Sleeping targets resist; unconscious ones do not. ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:26:16 PST Subject: RQR: RQ3 panicking Troll wrote: >Oh and let's not forget that Chaosium are already writing a Glorantha RPG >as well, which in all honesty I might just prefer to jump with if some >of the stuff floating around here is kosher. And the editor of such a book, if it is to proceed, is Steve Perrin. The very person who is looking at the possibility of doing something I would hazard to guess would be very unkosher in your books. If you can not envisage a better product than RQ3 other than the same again but with slight changes then why are you seeking to contribute to a group about house rules for RQ and the playtesting of RQ4? A single mail-note would register your complaints. Regards -- Guy Robinson -- ------------------------------ From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:58:29 -0500 Subject: RQR: Re: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #96 With regard to PCs not learning certain divine spells because they are less valuable on an adventure: I tend to encourage players to take less-used divine magic by applying cult pressure. In order to advance within the cult and receive its support, to say nothing of being allowed to stand for Priest or Rune Lord, a character is expected to behave according to cult guidelines and strictures, right? Well, in my game this includes being properly pious, which one can best show by taking the "right" magics. For example, one of my PCs was a pious Yelmalion Templar. He knew that as an article of faith every Yelmalion should learn the Lantern spell, so as to be able to shine Yelmalio's light into the dark places of the world. However, he approached his priest and indicated that he wished to learn Heal Wound. The priest said something on the order of "Humm! Well, of course it is not _inappropriate_ for a warrior to know something of healing for use on the battlefield, although we prefer to leave such pursuits to women. Of course, you have already honored the Lord of Light by learning those magics which He has created only for those who follow in the True Path, I assume." (i.e., Catseye and SunBright). When the character allowed as how he had not, the priest replied, "Ah. Well. You have shown no pollution nor deviance from the right path thus far, and I will not proscribe the learning of any divine magics that you feel that you require, notwithstanding my views on the proper path to Yelmalio's divine Truth." So he felt he had to take catseye after all. See how it works? Brandon ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:55:16 PST Subject: RQR: Re: Power ideas Steve Barnes wrote about his Power ideas. Will, an interesting stat and an interesting way to allocate POW gain rolls. I have been toying with a Seasonal roll for POW recovery of some kind but I have yet to rationalise it with the daily recouperation of MP. Obviously this would be highly background dependant feature. I would, wild suggestion here, almost be willing to cast the weaker APP side to accomodate it. It would act in many ways like StormBringer handles Charisma which, as we all know, was the ancestor of APP. >Dieties - Determines the amount of "divine pool" available, and >also the worshippers access to DI. I have ideas on Divine Pools but I must admit playtesting any Divine Pool idea - other than through thought experiments or character generation using this concept and subsequent adventuring - would be pretty hard to do. >Second Self (Fetch / Ally). This goes the other way to Ray's suggestion and seeks to unify the similair shamantic fetch and cult allied spirit. Such a treatment would have to be considered along with the other powers of a Rune level character. >Individuals - A devoted follower can grant a point of Power to a >leader or mentor. The leader will lose such points if the follower >renounces him. This is an interesting idea, that reminds me of the worship of other people concepts that we all discussed on the original RQ4 list. I would be inclined to suggest that any donations of POW or Divine Magic would be permanent unless the benefits is lost by the recipients through some form of Excommunication. For to allow people to grant and withdraw POW could set up something fairly bizarre like people acting like POW banks for their followers. I would be more moved by the idea that a POW sacrifice as a symbol of a commitment that is not made lightly but you know that I am not compassionate when it comes to POW sacrifices. I was the one to suggest limits to the amount of POW that can be sacrified in one act of magic to prevent people from strip-mining their souls. Bringing up Attunements, Illumination and God-Learning was an interesting act in itself. A very interesting cyclopedic work. Regards -- Guy Robinson -- ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 04:10:09 PST Subject: RQR: RQ3 Critique As this has generated what has appeared to be usefull criticism of RQ3 I will continue with this thread. David Cake wrote: >The question is, how do we make content that 'inspires'? RQ2 had a >pretty small amount of 'inspiring' content that didn't make it to RQ3 >eventually (considered as page count) [...] Well, considering that your are liable to underplay RQ2, you can not judge a book on page count alone. The direction, the expression and the presentation of book can go a long way to its success. Some of that success might actually be de to what is left out as much as to what is explicitly, and literally, put in. >Looking back >on it, the fact that I bought RQ3 almost straight away shows that I >have been an RQ fanatic longer than I realise. This is the kind of comment I have commonly seen made by a RQ3 fan. >The big problem been is that a lot of the RQ2 grognards assumed >that they were supposed to substitute for real cult writeups, rather than >being just a throwaway temporary solution. Much the same applies to the GoG >short form writeups too, come to think of it. Yes, RQ3 was in part throw away. As I would have thrown away more than I would have kept I think I was wise not to shell out hard cash for this product that we agree was relatively very expensive. If RQ3 and later RQ3 products were not so disposable by design I would not be so critical. The more correct route, in my belief, is to sense check the products that the authors wanted to base on RQ3 without the aid of Glorantha and ensure that they would be well supported. What does Joerg think, for exmaple about this RQ3 Alternate Earth campaign? Regards -- Guy Robinson -- ------------------------------ From: Loren Miller Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:18:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: administrivia is the RQR thing gone? this is a test to see if it is gone. - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller "I don't have to practice what I preach 'cause I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to!" The Book of The Subgenius ------------------------------ From: owner-rq-rules@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:10:44 EST Subject: 50 messages Steve, tell Ray that he can subscribe via the digest, and thus only get a few messages a day from us. It's the only way for people who are overwhelmed by too much mail to subscribe. - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller LOREN@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Life at the water's edge is the real life for men and women ------------------------------ From: GAWINTER@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:12:44 -0500 Subject: Re: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #87 RunePower: This has undoubtebly been suggested dozens of times but...why not allow for an automatic DI for any cult rune-spell. If it is critical that the Humakti cast slay living, then he does so with his DI. Now what should it cost, I would suggest 1 pow for each point of the spell for any normally reusable spell cast by someone who is capable of regaining it. For initiates 1.5 pow per point for reusable, 2pow for 1 pt for non-reusa ble, or it is available only with a standard DI. ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:23:52 PST Subject: RQR: Work for my next playtest of Steve's mods Well as my last playtest slot was nobbled by circumstance I am planning the next session well in advance so I can cover other aspects of Steve Perrin's combat without an overall hit point total. As this will be a tougher fight I attempt to use the MP-less Battle Magic system as well. As I do not have RQ3 I will be working from the latest rules I have plus Steve's mods. This is by means an exclusive activity on my part and part of the reason I am posting this is to encorage other people to take part. In the last playtest the players seized some lumps of Enchanted lead with Darkscript upon it that was being held by a troop of four Trollkin that some Trolls had been hidden insome elf-free woods. This time they will be called to return the sole trollkin that survived to the Trolls that are enjoying the hospitality of a nearby village and appearing to be abusing it. This is not suprising as the trolls and trollkin are actually Glamoured Ogres and Broos who have discovered that trolls are currently expected in this area of Sartar. When the characters arrive the villagers will mainly be suffering from food poisoning and a fight will break out. To have the magical power to attempt such a plan the Ogres and the Broo will be well-armoured and equipped as fits their courage and audacity. Any suggestions to what this might be and how might the Glamour be pierced would be gratefully accepted before I play this coming Wednesday. As my 16 year-old stepson might be playing the screams of a villager being involved in a spot of involuntary Broo cross species fertilization may not be an available option... Regards -- Guy Robinson -- ------------------------------ From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:52:08 -0800 Subject: Re: RQR: Re: Power ideas Guy Robinson writes: >>Second Self (Fetch / Ally). > >This goes the other way to Ray's suggestion and seeks to unify the >similair shamantic fetch and cult allied spirit. Such a treatment >would have to be considered along with the other powers of a Rune >level character. I'm still trying to figure out DI... But my current viewpoint is that all divine and spiritual manefestations are caused by the concious or unconcious thoughts of mortals. Gods and spirits do not actually exist. Most cultures do not realize this, of course. Obviously, this is not how the majority of gamers view Glorantha... >>Individuals - A devoted follower can grant a point of Power to a >>leader or mentor. The leader will lose such points if the follower >>renounces him. > >This is an interesting idea, that reminds me of the worship of other >people concepts that we all discussed on the original RQ4 list. If anyone can summarize those discussions, I would appreciate it. This was based off of the relationship between a Sorceror and apprentice, but I am also trying to incorporate a broader concept of leaders getting power from their followers, even ones that do not sacrifice POW. The other idea was that every memory, personal relationship, or possession has part of your Power invested in it. Most of such things are not significant enough to represent investment of an actual point of POW. The idea is that by sacrificing, or renouncing these things, the magician can gain a temporary boost in Power. Likewise, an enemy can exploit these relationships against you. Also, by denying your physical self, through fasting or sexual abstinence, you can also derive some mystical benefit. By the way, if anyone can recommend any good books about real-world magical systems, which describe terms such as Contagion in a straight foreward manner, I would be grateful. >I would be inclined to suggest that any donations of POW or Divine >Magic would be permanent unless the benefits is lost by the >recipients through some form of Excommunication. For to allow >people to grant and withdraw POW could set up something fairly >bizarre like people acting like POW banks for their followers. Again, it is my viewpoint that the individual is completely in control. Points are only lost "permanently", because most people do not truely understand themselves. Of course if you are Illuminated... - -steve ------------------------------ From: Alex Ferguson Date: Thu, 16 Feb 95 20:04:39 GMT Subject: Runepower, assorted flavours. Phew. What a tangled web of variants and attributions we weave, when we try to fix RM/RP... Jeff Richard: > In my campaign I use a modified RunePower system for divine magic. > Players sacrifice for RunePower Points as in the RunePower system, however > they must learn Heropaths of their god to use the RunePower. Each Heropath > corresponds to a (old-style) Divine Magic Spell known by the cult (e.g. > Worship Orlanth, Thunderbolt, Shield, etc.). I like this system; perhaps uncoincidentally, it's (as far as I can see) equivalent to something I posted to the old (I think) RQ list, some time ago. I elaborated the idea somewhat more, so it may not be exactly what Jeff plays, mind you. Henk L. suggested something with roughly the same intent; the distinction seemed to be that in his system, sacrificing POW (for RP), and making the quest for a spell (which did _not_ involve sacking POW) were always distinct steps. So it'd work like Cheng-RP, except that there would be this extra step involved, to "learn" individual spells. David Cheng: > Sveirtigson has performed six > Heropath rituals, and can thus call upon six different "rune spells." > But, he only has three Rune Points. Nowhere is it stated that > Sviertigson had to have sacrificed for all six distinct spells > previously. This is good. I'm confused; this sounds, by this interpretation, _exactly_ like "ordinary" RP, unless I'm missing some key nuance. Steve Perrin: > My theory is that the user of RunePower must sacrifice for points of Divine > Magic as before, they just don't get applied to specific spells. Ditto! David Dunham: > What Jeff describes is in fact almost identical to spirit magic: you learn > spells (Paths) and power them with reusable magic points (rune points). The > difference is that spells don't have size limits, and rune points are > reusable only very slowly. I think this similarity is actually a good > thing. Note that I proposed a variation which effectively established such limits, for RPII. It's not entirely analogous to spirit magic, of source, since for one thing there's only a single "resource" (sacked POW) which is used for both "points" and "learning", while SM has two. (Respectively, mps and INT, that is.) Alex. ------------------------------ End of RQ Rules Digest: V1 #97 ****************************** This is the bottom of the RuneQuest Rules Digest. RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark of Chaosium. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval. Send electronic mail to Majordomo@hops.wharton.upenn.edu with "help" in the body of the message for subscription information on this and other mailing lists.