From: owner-rq-rules-digest To: rq-rules-digest@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Subject: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #103 Reply-To: rq-rules Errors-To: owner-rq-rules-digest Precedence: bulk Content-Return: Prohibited Return-Path: owner-rq-rules-digest RQ Rules Digest: Monday, 20 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 103 RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to say "Yeah, I agree." Those who do will be lynched. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. RQR: will be prepended to it. 3. Do not engage in a point-by-point analysis or rebuttal of another person's message. It is too confusing for others to follow, qualifies as nit-picking, and it usually leads to flame wars. 4. There is no number 4. TABLE OF CONTENTS "Mauricio L. Rivera" Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 13:26:44 +0000 Subject: A few questions... Hello everyone! I'm a new subscriber to this list and would like to ask a few questions. By the way,I have been downloading some RQ archives and am slowly getting up to speed regarding RQ. I would like to say that the articles here are very useful, and look forward to more articles. My questions are as follows: 1. I have the Glorantha (Genertela...etc.), Gods of Glorantha and Ninja supplements plus the basic RuneQuest manuals. I am aware of Vikings and Griffin Island--are there any new supplements out now (i've been out of the scene since 1992), or a new version of RQ, for that matter? If so, where can one get them? Can they be ordered thru mail-order (like Avalon Hill, perhaps)? 2. Have any of you formulated a system for hex-based tactical combat with facing rules (i got this from an old game called Melee)? I was in the process of finalizing this for my group's use (back again in 1992), but had to stop due to work. I hope to be able to share my "suggestions" on tactical combat within a few weeks (work really gets in the way of a lot of things in my life). I moved from AD&D to RQ since I felt it was a very immature gaming system (i hope that there aren't any AD&D fanatics out there..), and found RQ to be just the thing I wanted. However, due to its complexity, we found the play a bit slow during combat. I then decided to make a HyperCard stack (I use a Mac) to assist in my refereeing by letting it do the rolling and stating the results of the roll plus it also helps me make "secret" rolls to determine if a player's skill attempt suceeded. The HyperCard stack keeps all the stats of every character (including skill levels, spells known and equipment) and removes the drudgery of looking up stuff by listing the result of the roll. It's almost complete..and has no help files...but I am willing to give it (eh, wot's this?) for free to anyone who wants to use it. Slight problem: you'll need a Mac, HyperCard 2.0 and you'll have to wait until I get increased access to the Internet (unless you happen to live in the Philippines). Is there something like this for the PC? Another rule we implement is that I (err..using my mac) do all the non-combat skill rolls for the players, so that they don't know if they succeeded at their skill roll attempt or not until something happens or does not happen to them. Well, I got a lot more items I'd like to bring up but I feel this is enough for one message. I hope to get a reply soon to my questions and will answer them as soon as possible. Until later...Mau Rivera ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 00:44:48 PST Subject: Re: Who's Buying? I think that a valuable market for RQ4 would be those gamers who are seeking a rite of passage from the low-brow games, namely AD&D2, Magic the Gathering (USA) and Games Workshop wargames (UK). Therefore RQ should attempt to retain the high ground but ensure that it is at least accessable high ground. There are other games that almost appeal to the same market with the most successfull of these apparently being the World of Darkness range. If RQ4 hits the shelves, in whatever number of books it will finally appear in, people will shift from these games to RQ in a manner similiar to osmosis. The question will be whether people will actually run games with the RQ4 range. A problem is that game like Aria(sp?), which I only know by reputation, could steal the ground that RQ has marked out for itself. This is why I have been urging for a Generic RQ that is strong enough to stand beside Glorantha and to strengthen both. Generic RuneQuest could help the problems of the slow, and in some cases prohibitively expensive, development of familiarity that a new gamer faces when confronted with Glorantha. Later a Generic RQer could convert to Glorantha or, more realistically, a portion of Glorantha. Regards -- Guy Robinson -- ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 01:33:32 PST Subject: The Free-Will of RQ Gods and Men Steve Barnes writes: [concerning worship of inividuals] >Well, I have memories of vague discussions of Wyters, but nothing >that had concrete rules... If there was anything important that >came out of the discussions, I must have missed it. The thrust was that in RQ the concept of mortals becoming gods, eg. apotheosis, and the worship of gods and spitits suggested that there where some gaps in which people could worship people. This might occurr in a subliminal way - someone obtaining a respected status in a community or in the manner you suggested where people sacrifice POW to a leader they are devoted and committed to. As most of the same participants are here these points will start to resurface when this are a begins to be discussed again. >>Sounds a bit like Existentialist Humanism to me. Have at look at >>'Humanism and Existentalism' by Jean-Paul Sartre. Myself I tend >>to extend myself the luxury of gods within my role-playing. >My understanding is that they have no "free Will", explained as >a consequence of the Compromise. As such, my non-god viewpoint >is equally valid as the standard diest belief system. I'm still >wavering whether the my godless approach represents the true >underlying reality of Glorantha... A response to this, from a Gloranthan angle, is that the gods appear to have enough free-will to decide that they do not want to answer Divinations and instead raise their own aggenda. Mind you this is an interesting treatment of the Compromise. My take would be that the gods are not as anthropromorphic as their worshippers might think. This begs the question of whether they possess free will (a Christain concept) or not. I would prefer my gods to pass the Turing test, to follow their own aims and to map the rest of their personalities from the culture of their followers. I would be inclined to make the rules suggest the process of apotheosis charting the characters' progress as they start to take up the duties that their communities require and the more abstract and inhuman wills of the Gods. As they progress towards the role of Hero, and the RuneQuest of AH's Trademark, they must start to be prepared to shed their humanity and prehaps embrace a death different to the mortals that prepared to live and die without such a challenge. The death of an ascent to godhood. Therefore when a character begins to Quest he should be vaguely aware of the requirements with the interested illuminati (not in the Gloranthan sense) seeking to guide such a potentially valuable resource. Note that I would be inclined to make such a struggle phyrric in its nature as this kind of thing appeals to my deep sense of irony. But for this to work there needs to other, equally valid ways, to view the RQ world and mythologies. I would also envisage that a cyncial person simply could not advance within a cult as he would not able to bind himself to the various forms of beliefs and associations necessary to advance. Regards -- Guy Robinson -- ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 02:12:05 PST Subject: Re: RQ4 Revisions GAWINTER writes: >I think that "troll" was stating a preference for a RQ4 that is recognizably >an evolution of RQ3. I too take that approach. Simply put, lets concentrate >first on fixing what is WRONG with RQ3 as it is written, those parts of the >system that are cumbersome or get in the way of MGF. To evolve you first need mutation. All us playtesters and advocates of RQ can do is suggest and to debate to bring things out. Especially when much of our discussion is theoretical. If we are to concentrate all we can do is to write our own house version of RQ3 or RQ2. To suppress such debate and suggestions on the altar of objective wrongs that RQ3 supposedly possesses or for the sake of one person's MGF is counter productive in my humble opinion. I like MGF too but I release that other people's version of MGF might be different to mine. To express is humane, to contibute is divine. Enough said, -- Guy Robinson -- ------------------------------ From: Loren Miller Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 08:41:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: RQ audience 1. I'm already writing a game called Goonquest, so ... don't tread on me, phil. 2. Lose the neophobe attitude. If RQ has to double its sales to live then what's the point in just letting it die and making up a replacement game? Wouldn't you rather have a surviving RQ that did what it had to in order to draw in a younger audience (not Jr High young, but younger than 30) than a dead RQ? How many people out there play the Fantasy Trip? How many play Chivalry and Sorcery? Dead games do *not* have players for very good reasons, and I do not want to see RQ in that boat. - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller "I don't have to practice what I preach 'cause I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to!" The Book of The Subgenius ------------------------------ From: PenDrake@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:10:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Who's Buying? >>A problem is that game like Aria(sp?), which I only know by reputation, could steal the ground that RQ has marked out for itself.<< I've got to disagree with that statement. Aria is, without question, for the creative elite; there is simply TOO much work for the gamemaster and group to do before getting started. Even the cultures and their hierarchies have to be defined before character creation. Aria is simply a design tool with some smoothly-wedded roleplaying rules. - -Tom aka PenDrake@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Majordomo Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:49:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Heropaths and Runepower, again (fwd) Forwarded message: From postmaster@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Fri Feb 17 10:38:53 1995 X400-Received: by /PRMD=METRO-SEATTLE/ADMD=MCI/C=US/; Relayed; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 07:38:06 +0800 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 07:38:06 +0800 From: RICHARJE Subject: Heropaths and Runepower, again To: "O=PMDF; DDA.TYPE=RFC-822; DDA.VALUE=owner-rq-rules-digest(a)hops.wharton.upenn.edu" Message-id: <0002AD69.MAI*/S=RICHARJE/DD.MSPOST=COUNCIL/DD.NET=METROKC/O=MSMW/PRMD=METRO-SEATTLE/ADMD=MCI/C=US/@MHS> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT UA-content-id: CSI NC V3.0 X400-MTS-identifier: [/PRMD=METRO-SEATTLE/ADMD=MCI/C=US/;950216233806] I'm actually a little bit surprised that my Heropaths and Runepower system has been so well received, but hey, I was trying to merge what I saw as the best of the Runepower and of the old Divine Magic system. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) there has been several different interpretations about what I wrote - all bearing merit, mind you. In my campaign, the principal way one learns a heropath is by being trained by a priest to play a role in cult ceremonies. One enacts an aspect of one's god during the worship ceremony and during the ceremony one wields that aspect of the god's magic (because during the ceremony one is that aspect of the god). Outside of the ceremonial rites one can use Runepower points sacrificed to the god to once again wield the god's magic. To strip this explanation down into terms any God Learner could use: Heropaths are learned rites that allow one to channel Runepower. Runepower is that aspect of your essence or soul that you have given your god. You do not have to sacrifice your essence or soul to learn a Heropath - but to use a Heropath to wield your god's magic you must have sufficient essence (ie. Runepower points) sacrificed to your god. David Dunham and David Cheng seemed to have interpreted my blurb as I had intended it to be read. However, if I understand Alex's comments correctly - he described perfectly the system that evolved into the Heropath/Runepower system I currently use. I guess the difference between the two systems would boil down to: is a Heropath consecrated by the simultaneous expenditure of POW (one point in the case of the Worship Orlanth Heropath, three points in the case of the Wield Thunderbolt Heropath), or is it a personally understanding of an aspect of the diety rooted in the ceremonies performed by initiates. Either works for me - I just found the latter to work better in my current campaign. Someone commented that Divine Magic isn't particularly broken. IMO opinion that depends on the type of campaign one is running.Hell, the reason many people (like myself) are frustrated with RQ3 is rooted in the rules system being an impediment rather than an aid when GM certain types of campaigns. A rules system is not the game - it is just a mechanism to help facilitate the role-playing. If the mechanism detracts from the game, get rid of it or change it! Yours truly, Jeff Richard ------------------------------ From: "Loren Miller" Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:43:37 EST Subject: DI credit Stefan Tjernstrom replying to Mustafa Unlu ><After all, whether the God feels like intervening in the mundane on >behalf of a follower doesn't really depend on how powerful the >character is but more on how much they are liked by the God.>> > >****Aroka Flame Follows**** >Total disagreement and howls of torment. Agreed. I agree with the original complaint that making the probability of DI success a function of POW is not fair to characters who have sacrificed POW. It's cruel and unfair, but sometimes that's how the gods work. The gods aren't people and they don't really understand us or empathize with us. Anyone who says they do is projecting. However I do not follow when people state that the probability of DI success should be based on something else. In the case of someone who has done a great deed for a cult, that person should get an automatic N-point DI the next time (where N is a function of the greatness of the deed). But in most cases I think that POW is measured wrong. I'd elaborate on Steve Barnes' version of Presence, changing the terms somewhat to get rid of that ugly WILL stat. Every magic-using person has two or more POWs, a mundane POW and one or more alternate POWs. The mundane POW exists on the mundane plane. Each alternate POW exists in an alternate reality, which may be the spirit world, the god-world, solace, agartha, atlantis, the eastern paradise, dreamtime, storyland, hundred acre wood, ryhope wood, the happy hunting ground, or what have you. Initiation into a magical organization such as a cult or to a magic-worker such as a sorcerer consists of a bunch of ceremonies that give you the ability to develop alternate POW in the appropriate alternate reality. The ceremony is sealed by the sacrifice of a point of mundane POW which is alchemically transformed into the seed of the alternate POW. When trying to get the attention and aid of an entity that lives at the other end of a link I think the probablity of getting the answer you request should be related to your alternate POW in that reality and to the amount of mundane POW that you have available to be sucked out of you. I hope this isn't too abstract to understand. Maybe an example would make it a little more concrete. Let's go back to the oldest example of all. Ugly Grok, an Orlanth initiate falls into a well. Realizing he is rapidly approaching his demise, Grok makes a quick plea to Orlanth to save him. Grok has sacrificed 1 POW to Orlanth for the link to Orlanth's meadhall (alternate reality) and his mundane POW is 12. Grok also sacrificed 2 POW to join his ancestor worship cult, but that doesn't help him in this situation, for Orlanth is not an ancestor. Add the two appropriate POWs together. Roll a d100 and if it's a 1 (below his alternate POW) then Orlanth does the favor for no POW cost at all. If it's between 2 and 13 then Grok loses Mundane POW equal to the roll minus 1. Of the mundane POW sacrificed Grok loses half to his god permanently (inevitable POW loss for a hasty and inefficient transaction), and the other half is added to his alternate POW in Orlanth's meadhall. If he rolled a 7 he would go from 12 POW to 6 POW, and his alternate POW would go from 1 to 4. - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller LOREN@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Life at the water's edge is the real life for men and women ------------------------------ From: "Loren Miller" Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:45:41 EST Subject: (RICHARJE) Heropaths and Runepower, again Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 07:38:06 +0800 From: RICHARJE Subject: Heropaths and Runepower, again To: "O=PMDF; DDA.TYPE=RFC-822; DDA.VALUE=owner-rq-rules-digest(a)hops.wharton.upenn.edu" I'm actually a little bit surprised that my Heropaths and Runepower system has been so well received, but hey, I was trying to merge what I saw as the best of the Runepower and of the old Divine Magic system. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) there has been several different interpretations about what I wrote - all bearing merit, mind you. In my campaign, the principal way one learns a heropath is by being trained by a priest to play a role in cult ceremonies. One enacts an aspect of one's god during the worship ceremony and during the ceremony one wields that aspect of the god's magic (because during the ceremony one is that aspect of the god). Outside of the ceremonial rites one can use Runepower points sacrificed to the god to once again wield the god's magic. To strip this explanation down into terms any God Learner could use: Heropaths are learned rites that allow one to channel Runepower. Runepower is that aspect of your essence or soul that you have given your god. You do not have to sacrifice your essence or soul to learn a Heropath - but to use a Heropath to wield your god's magic you must have sufficient essence (ie. Runepower points) sacrificed to your god. David Dunham and David Cheng seemed to have interpreted my blurb as I had intended it to be read. However, if I understand Alex's comments correctly - he described perfectly the system that evolved into the Heropath/Runepower system I currently use. I guess the difference between the two systems would boil down to: is a Heropath consecrated by the simultaneous expenditure of POW (one point in the case of the Worship Orlanth Heropath, three points in the case of the Wield Thunderbolt Heropath), or is it a personally understanding of an aspect of the diety rooted in the ceremonies performed by initiates. Either works for me - I just found the latter to work better in my current campaign. Someone commented that Divine Magic isn't particularly broken. IMO opinion that depends on the type of campaign one is running.Hell, the reason many people (like myself) are frustrated with RQ3 is rooted in the rules system being an impediment rather than an aid when GM certain types of campaigns. A rules system is not the game - it is just a mechanism to help facilitate the role-playing. If the mechanism detracts from the game, get rid of it or change it! Yours truly, Jeff Richard - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller LOREN@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu Life at the water's edge is the real life for men and women ------------------------------ End of RQ Rules Digest: V1 #103 ******************************* This is the bottom of the RuneQuest Rules Digest. RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark of Chaosium. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval. Send electronic mail to Majordomo@hops.wharton.upenn.edu with "help" in the body of the message for subscription information on this and other mailing lists.