From: owner-rq-rules-digest To: rq-rules-digest@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Subject: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #111 Reply-To: rq-rules Errors-To: owner-rq-rules-digest Precedence: bulk Content-Return: Prohibited Return-Path: owner-rq-rules-digest RQ Rules Digest: Thursday, 23 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 111 RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to say "Yeah, I agree." Those who do will be lynched. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. RQR: will be prepended to it. 3. Do not engage in a point-by-point analysis or rebuttal of another person's message. It is too confusing for others to follow, qualifies as nit-picking, and it usually leads to flame wars. 4. There is no number 4. TABLE OF CONTENTS Bryan J. Maloney Editions Bryan J. Maloney Off topic, sorry, sorry, sorry Steven E Barnes Off topic, sorry, sorry, sorry NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC Reviving Fantasy Europe Hugh Foster RQ Art Hugh Foster Chaos SPerrin@aol.com FH "Editor" SPerrin@aol.com Upcoming Things SPerrin@aol.com Fwd: Glorantha Game SPerrin@aol.com dividing Spirit Magic; Ra... Steven E Barnes dividing Spirit Magic; Ra... SPerrin@aol.com Befuddle Saving Throw Steven E Barnes Befuddle Saving Throw David Cake Advantage/disadvantage character generatio Steven E Barnes Advantage/disadvantage character generati ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 12:55:35 -0500 Subject: Editions First editon of AD&D: The three little brown books. Second edition of AD&D: The three little brown books plus Greyhawk, Blackmoor, and Eldritch Wizardry. Third edition of AD&D: The "first edition" AD&D rule books. Fourth edition of AD&D: The "first edition" AD&D rule books plus Unearthed Arcana and the two Survival Guides Fifth edition of AD&D: The "second edition" AD&D rule books Sixth edition of AD&D: The "second edition" AD&D rule books plus about 15 "Complete XXX Handbooks" Seventh edition of AD&D: The "revised second edition" AD&D rulebooks, released this year. TSR just never bothered to label their editions, but from a substantive standpoint, the game now known as AD&D is in a seventh major revision, what many companies call "editions". ------------------------------ From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 13:00:11 -0500 Subject: Off topic, sorry, sorry, sorry Okay, somebody asked for some books on magic: Try ftp to ftp.semi.slopoke.com (I think that's the addres). They've got a boatload of stuff on Kabalah and ritual Hermetecism. ------------------------------ From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:20:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Off topic, sorry, sorry, sorry >Okay, somebody asked for some books on magic: > >Try ftp to ftp.semi.slopoke.com (I think that's the addres). They've got >a boatload of stuff on Kabalah and ritual Hermetecism. Uh, that sounds exactly like what I *don't* want to read, if it is anything like the Kaballa FAQ and Golden Dawn stuff. I don't want to learn how to be a magician, I want cliff-notes about how magic works. I'll try Bonewitz... - -steve ------------------------------ From: NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 11:15:30 PST Subject: RE: Reviving Fantasy Europe Bryan J. Maloney details a list of setting for Fantasy Europe, and I think it is a good idea. At some point, some of the other cultures should be covered, as RQ is well suited to dealing with 'low-tech' groups. In keeping with his idea of selling books, I would suggest some short story anthologies or even novels about the areas. Heck, look how well those D*D books sold. No, let's not discuss their literary value, but consider how effective they were as a marketing tool. Neil _______________________________________________________________ Neil Robinson NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA ------------------------------ From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com> Date: 23 Feb 95 15:08:36 EST Subject: RQ Art >>So, do people like the RQ3 cover art? Do they prefer the combat-oriented RQ2 art to the exploration-oriented RQ3 art? << As some of you might have twigged, my historical tastes lie largely in the dark ages. As a result, the celtic/saxon/vike influences (and impressive authenticity, no 3' horns on helmets thank Odin!) appealed to me greatly, and really helped set the mood for RQ in my style. The pseudo-classic-greek style of the RQ2 stuff helped seal my view of Glorantha - and differentiate in my mind between the two. (I'm one who would not overly mourn the seperation, but let's not go back to that here). Both seem far more realistic and relateable to to me than the half-Tolkein, half-pseudo-medieval, part-odd-shaped-women art of D&D et al. I note more and more people praising the Vike module. ARE YOU LISTENING CHAOSIUM ? You don't have to go overboard, but I still think do this day that a scatter of environment packs dealing with Earth cultures (Vikes, Celts, Romans, Aztecs, Crusaders, etc, etc) would surely be fairly cheap to produce (look at the D&D equivalent, not much heftier than a Dragon magazine and _packed_ with value!) and would give novice GMs like we all were a more understandable jump-off point. It's far easier going from D&D to RQ Vikes to Glorantha than doing it in one; keeping the Alternate Earth going would IMHO increase RQ's player base. ------------------------------ From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com> Date: 23 Feb 95 15:08:43 EST Subject: Chaos >>Nah, the chaos has always been there. << True! But up to now it has always been an adult, and very Glorantha, version of Chaos. RQ's Chaos is very different in flavour to GW or even Moorcock Chaos. In games like Warhammer it's "big evil guys with lots of black armour and spikes" (ever see a Warhammer figure ?) whereas with RQ I always saw Chaos almost as an Element, like storms or earthquakes, rather than an excuse for odd-looking people. I mean, where would you find Ralzakark on a WH battle table ? Let's keep a mature Chaos and not descend to WH levels. I have actually seen leads for Chaos Imperial Halflings, clad in spiky armour and measuring a scale 6' or so. I kid you not. ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:59:26 -0500 Subject: Re: FH "Editor" Just as a defense of my editing skills... I came into the Fantasy Hero 1 project very late. It was already in galleys. I was a proofreader more than editor, though I did make some fiddlin' suggestions that were mostly ignored for lack of time. It was nice of Hero to give me the editing credit, but I probably didn't deserve it. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:59:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Upcoming Things For those of you who are wondering, Mike McG and Oliver J are listening to this list. They are very pleased with the discussion and finding a lot of ideas that either inspire them or match stuff they were already doing. Watch for your names in the Special Thanks section of the rulesbook. This doesn't mean they are done and don't need more input. I just wanted you to know that you are not barking into the wind. Just got off the phone with Mike and what he had to say sounds very promising. We don't want to stifle discussion by anticipating announcements to come; keep talking. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:59:48 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Glorantha Game Bryan Maloney made the following suggestion to me personally, but since I'm getting the content from Oliver and Mike and then adding to it, I thought I would post it to the list and make sure O&J see it. Good stuff, Bryan. Steve Perrin - --------------------- Forwarded message: From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) To: SPerrin@aol.com Date: 95-02-23 13:19:00 EST Stuff that has just GOTTA be in the AiG book, please: If you are going to to Dragon Pass, please give us enough information to do it. That means Sartar, Tarsh, and the Grazelands with other things on the fringes, at least in my last Dragon Pass campaign. What we really need, though, is a comprehensive Grazelander religion and the Sartarite religion. Please present these as actual POLYTHEISTIC RELIGIONS. To be blunt, all RQ stuff up to the present that presents religion is pretty much crap from a comparative religion standpoint. It has a thin veneer of polytheism over what is essentially nothing more than a set of parallel monotheisms. Second, I would like to see the Sartarite religion as an actual PART OF the Sartarite culture. What I have seen in current RQ products are "cult descriptions" that give little idea of how the deity fits into daily life. We are given the impression that Orlanth is a much more general god than we think from standard RQ rules. (King of Sartar) Let's see that. I would like to see a full-scale religion for Sartar, not a bunch of "cults". Stress the fact that the cults of a religion are just edifices in a SINGLE structure. The way I had been running religions in my Sartar campaign was this: Boys initiate to Orlanth at the age of sixteen. Girls initiate to Ernalda at the age of sixteen. If you don't, you're not an adult and you're not a full member of the clan. The worship is not seperable from the clan structure. Then there were the weirdo deities: Eurmal: Entering Eurmal's initiatesy was to declare yourself an outlaw. Humakt: Initiation to Humakt was death. You no longer were alive so far as the clan was concerned. You now became a friendly stranger, with no relatives except for the bonds you made within the cult of Humakt. Lhankor Mhy: Initiation to Lhankhor Mhy kept you in the clan, but you were now defined as a "lawspeaker". You had a different identity. it was very rare for anyone not the child of an initiate to initiate into this cult. Chalana Arroy: See Lhankor Mhy. Both this cult and Lhankor Mhy were usually only found in towns. Issaries: Very specialized cult. Most Issaries cultists are hereditary merchants and stand outside of many clan activities. Except for Eurmal and Humakt, it was common for initiates in other cults to maintain their Orlanth or Ernalda initiateship, since to do otherwise would be to surrender their place within the clan except for their special functions. Shamans had a place in this religion as well--they were usually Kolatings and could initiate to Orlanth. It was possible and permitted to worship and even make sacrifice to cults other than your own if they were friendly to each other. Thus, Orlanthi would worship at Humakt's shrine before a battle. I sort of winged the game effects, but a creative designer like you should be able to come up with something. What I am trying to get across is the idea that, except for basic cultural deities like Orlanth and Ernalda, which define your identity in the cult, an Initiate was NOT the first level of membership--it was somebody who had been let into the special secrets of the god--the "cultus" as it were. You did not have to be an initiate to derive some kind of benefit from the deity. All these deities were part of a religion--they didn't just share space on a street of temples. RQIII had nothing at all like this. It suffered from a very sad D&D-ish approach, in my opinion. Polytheists don't have "a god". The worship the gods. ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:59:54 -0500 Subject: Re: dividing Spirit Magic; Ra... David Dunham writes because I said :> Common Magic is available to anyone. Shamans use Spirit Magic. Warriors :>using Common Magic would not be as likely to have reduced POW/MP against :>Befuddle/Demoralize because they won't run up against it as often. >I don't understand the reduced POW bit of what you wrote.< The problem as I've seen it described is that after a warrior puts on his Bladesharp and Protection, some other doofus warrior tosses on a Befuddle and the warrior with Bladesharp and Protection doesn't have any POW/MP left to defend himself with. If only shamans use these spells, the POW-depleted warrior won't be as likely to be hit by the spell. On the other hand, Steve Barnes' suggestion of giving an INTx1 "saving throw" against Befuddle/Demoralize would do the job as well and let spell lists stay where they are... Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:25:18 -0800 Subject: Re: dividing Spirit Magic; Ra... >On the other hand, Steve Barnes' suggestion of giving an INTx1 "saving throw" >against Befuddle/Demoralize would do the job as well >and let spell lists stay where they are... The INTx1 "saving roll" has been in use in Steve Maurer's campaign for a over a decade. It also appears in the RQ:AiG manuscript. That merely allows you to realize you are Befuddled. I also proposed a different saving roll mechanism, in case people still think Befuddle is too powerful. - -steve ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:07:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Befuddle Saving Throw Steve Barnes replies... >>The INTx1 "saving roll" has been in use in Steve Maurer's campaign for a over a decade.<< Interesting that Ray Turney, who plays with Steve Maurer regularly, is the one who has problems with Befuddle. Is it Ray's character who generally gets Befuddled? >>It also appears in the RQ:AiG manuscript. That merely allows you to realize you are Befuddled. I also proposed a different saving roll mechanism, in case people still think Befuddle is too powerful.<< Sorry, I missed something somewhere. What different saving roll mechanism did you propose? Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:31:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Befuddle Saving Throw Steve Perrin: %>>The INTx1 "saving roll" has been in use in Steve Maurer's campaign %for a over a decade.<< % % Interesting that Ray Turney, who plays with Steve Maurer regularly, is the %one who has problems with Befuddle. % Is it Ray's character who generally gets Befuddled? No. As I mentioned earlier, it doesn't seem to be a problem in our games. % Sorry, I missed something somewhere. What different saving roll mechanism %did you propose? INTx1 per turn to become unbefuddled. - -steve ------------------------------ From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:01:21 +0800 Subject: Advantage/disadvantage character generation >I have always _hated_ the advantages/disadvantages thing. It invariably >(almost) leads to stereotypical and improbably characters. I mean, when >you see the umpteenth character with the disadvantages 'compulsive >gambler', 'weakness to women' and a bunch of silly phobias it gets >boooring. I generally agree. Hero character generation works OK for superhero games, but doesn't work that well for more normal situations. Even the cliched ones can work do define character quite well ('reckless', 'overconfident', and 'must be leader', being a popular combination.). And GURPS advantages/disads are pretty weird. Most of the GURPS disads seem wildly debilitating if taken at face value. Things that sound OK like 'absent minded' turn out to involve a major loss of contact with reality. But for an example of a game that does it quite well, look at Ars Magica. The list is wide enough that you don't get much overlap. They also work a heroic passions system into it as well, and the list includes social status, magical flaws, demon hunted, being a foreigner, being educated, and all sorts of things. I find that it works well. The problem to avoid is the way HERO characters all push for the maximum number of disadvantage points, and almost inevitably end up severe loons, one way or another. Any such system should be optional. Cheers David ------------------------------ From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:13:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Advantage/disadvantage character generation >>I have always _hated_ the advantages/disadvantages thing. It invariably >>(almost) leads to stereotypical and improbably characters. I mean, when >>you see the umpteenth character with the disadvantages 'compulsive >>gambler', 'weakness to women' and a bunch of silly phobias it gets >>boooring. Odd, I've never seen either of those on any Hero/GURPS character. >[...] > The problem to avoid is the way HERO characters all push for the >maximum number of disadvantage points, and almost inevitably end up severe >loons, one way or another. Any such system should be optional. I won't debate this issue, since this is a RQ list; the Hero point system has strengths and weaknesses... I don't believe anyone is proposing a system of character disadvantages (to use the Hero terminology). They are talking about a meta-system for magic, possibly using power modifiers like Hero. I think a fairly simple one can be constructed, simplier than Hero. After all, we are only simulating spells, not everything Hero does... - -steve ------------------------------ End of RQ Rules Digest: V1 #111 ******************************* This is the bottom of the RuneQuest Rules Digest. RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark of Chaosium. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval. Send electronic mail to Majordomo@hops.wharton.upenn.edu with "help" in the body of the message for subscription information on this and other mailing lists.