From: owner-rq-rules-digest To: rq-rules-digest@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Subject: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #174 Reply-To: rq-rules Errors-To: owner-rq-rules-digest Precedence: bulk Content-Return: Prohibited Return-Path: owner-rq-rules-digest RQ Rules Digest: Friday, 31 March 1995 Volume 01 : Number 174 RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to say "Yeah, I agree." Those who do will be lynched. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Do not engage in a point-by-point analysis or rebuttal of another person's message. It is too confusing for others to follow, qualifies as nit-picking, and it usually leads to flame wars. 4. There is no number 4. TABLE OF CONTENTS Kevin Rose RQ Rules Digest: V1 #173 Graeme Lindsell Knockout SPerrin@aol.com Knockout Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox. Knockout mdouglas_at_AIGWHQ@mailhost. Anesthesia Gregory C. Walsh posting for players Colin Watson Little guys killing big opposition ? SPerrin@aol.com posting for players ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Rose Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 22:59:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #173 When Steve Jackson released man-to-man (the combat portion of GURPS) he asked for everyone who had been knocked out by an injury to raise their hands. About 1/4 of the room did. Then he asked for everyone who had been killed to raise their hands. . . Depending on how a weapon is inflicting damage it is easy for a wound to be non-fatal but still effectively render one stunned/unconcious, either from concusion or pain or other problems. I think it being on pick list is excesively gross, but it is certainly possible. But, as a friend of mine has pointed out, if hitting people over the head worked as effectively and non-fatally as it works in movies and books then anesthesiologists wouldn't have a multi-year residency. Kevin > > I think the standard RQ3 knockout rules are something like matching damage > that penetrates armour against the HP of the head on the resistance table, > and a knockout occurs if it succeeds. This seems fine to me: knocking someone > out seems a lot harder than killing them. > > Graeme Lindsell a.k.a Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au ------------------------------ From: gal502@anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:51:12 +0300 Subject: Knockout >When Steve Jackson released man-to-man (the combat portion of GURPS) he >asked for everyone who had been knocked out by an injury to raise their >hands. About 1/4 of the room did. Then he asked for everyone who had >been killed to raise their hands. . . Uh huh. I assume this was a respresentative sample, in no way skewed in favour of the living? > >Depending on how a weapon is inflicting damage it is easy for a wound to >be non-fatal but still effectively render one stunned/unconcious, either >from concusion or pain or other problems. I think RQ already covers this when head or chest locations are reduced beneath 0 hp. Some rules to govern how long it takes to wake up naturally in these situations would be nice, and some form of pain rules, but I think the rules can already govern these situations. I think it being on pick list >is excesively gross, but it is certainly possible. I wasn't saying it should be removed, just that the standard RQ rules I mentioned should be then used as well ie if you pick knockout, you have to penetrate helmet armour and overcome the head HP on the resistance table. I do agree that it should still be on the list. Sorry, I didn't state my position very well. I still thinks it's easier to kill someone than to knock them out, or to disable them without damage, and that Steve's original suggestion was way too gross. Graeme Lindsell a.k.a Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University "I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard" - Ripping Yarns ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 01:32:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Knockout Hokay, Graeme thinks that having a Knockout on the critical list is all right, but needs to be modified, while Kevin Rose considers it too gross to be on the list. The idea was to have a quick and dirty list without a lot of special conditions attached to it. However, the very fact of saying that a CON roll is needed if Knockout is chosen already adds a condition. "Knockout" for the purposes of the list was meant to mean incapacitated. However, the idea was also that there would be no actual damage done, the character is, for whatever reason, out of the fight for the moment. As Graeme pointed out, some kind of recovery rolls are necessary (probably the ol' reliable CON rolls--x1 the first round, x2 the second, etc.). Actually, I would think that a no armor hit with average damage would be worse than a Knockout, since even that reduces most hit locations to less than 0. Oh yes, the effect of parries. A normal parry/dodge to a Critical hit means that either the critical becomes a normal hit or (possibly) the parrying weapon is shattered. A critical Parry/Dodge always succeeds. And an aside to Bryan Maloney--any problem with these line lengths? Apparently my insistence on using the word wrap feature has been giving some list members problems reading my stuff. Sorry if this has been a big problem. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 23:04:31 PST Subject: Re: Knockout The shape of the discussion about Knockout does seem to suggest that people should be knocked out as a result of their injuries. Prehaps if someone took a significant wound they could prehaps only fight for the number of rounds equal to their remaining hit points after such a blow? This would start to litter the floor with the maimed and those unable to fight. which is a good thing by my books. I would only allow a knock-out by direct choice if someone got to someone's head with a black-jack. A bottle, vase or mace to the head can commonly kill reather than just knock someone out. And if we are going to discuss knock-outs we might as well discuss being winded, spraining joints and trying to unbalance or trip your opponent. Side-notes for Steve: I tend to break lines for myself, generally well under 80 characters per line. It does appear to make it more readable. Steeleye Span? Isn't that the name of a rather irreverent folk band? ------------------------------ From: mdouglas_at_AIGWHQ@mailhost.aig.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 95 08:30:39 cst Subject: Anesthesia >>When Steve Jackson released man-to-man (the combat portion of GURPS) he >>asked for everyone who had been knocked out by an injury to raise their >>hands. About 1/4 of the room did. Then he asked for everyone who had >>been killed to raise their hands. . . Well, of course...the second statement should have been rephrased as "anyone who knows someone personaly who has been killed by an injury, raise your hand!" Im sure the response would have greatly outweighed the first. >>Depending on how a weapon is inflicting damage it is easy for a wound to >>be non-fatal but still effectively render one stunned/unconcious, either >>from concusion or pain or other problems. I think it being on pick list >>is excesively gross, but it is certainly possible. But, as a friend of >>mine has pointed out, if hitting people over the head worked as >>effectively and non-fatally as it works in movies and books then >>anesthesiologists wouldn't have a multi-year residency. It not only depends on how the weapon is used, but what kind of weapon it is (rarely addressed in RPG's). For instance, it would be nearly impossible for me (a somewhat heafty guy) to kill someone with a biljack or an asp without some pretty excessive beating sessions....on the other hand, even flat-blading someone with a broadsword is likely to crush their skull. The latter would be no different than using a crowbar or some other similarly heavy and solid object. PS-the trick to being an anesthesiologist is anesthesizing your patients without leaving large dents in their heads (plastic surgeory patients really hate this). ------------------------------ From: "Gregory C. Walsh" Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:08:53 -0500 Subject: posting for players I tried to get an RQ game running last fall by posting an ad on this internet group. I generated 4 responses, but only one ever showed up, and he only came once. His character being so phenominally unlucky as to be killed right away might have had something to do with it. I dunno. But in anycase, my experience is that I have had more luck converting D&D players. I now have 4 regular players, 3 of which are D&D types. Seems to be stabilizing. I hate moving ... (I left the Bay Area of California and came to the Washington DC area). I am done whining now. Re: smaug. I think my attack scenario has been well defended. In my world, dragons don't attack towns often because it is dangerous. And needless to say, they wouldn't go about it in a dumb way, not if they are older. But if a dragon for some reason was compelled to attack a town I would put my money on the dragon. Oh, I was under the impression that a self bow crit did 7 + 1d6 + 1 damage, or 14 max damage. Since it is an impale/crit. I seem to remember that dragon heads, bodies, have more like 18 to 20 hits average. So you would have to crit twice in the same place to take the beasty down. Oh, what do people do on an arrow crit? Make double damage (14) or max damage plus another roll? (8 + 1d6). No long bows in my world, and only some nomads have comp bows. Greg ------------------------------ From: Colin Watson Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 16:20:57 +0100 Subject: Re: Little guys killing big opposition ? __________ Jim Chapin: > In Gloranthan terms, dream dragons > should be killable by a bunch of archers. Ok, but I'm saying the "bunch" should at least be hundreds rather than dozens. With RQ3 crits the number of archers required is ludicrously low. ___________ Hugh Foster: > Don't forget the blighter's moving at whatever ludicrous > speed it takes to keep about a hundred tons of dragon > airborne on relatively small wings. Well, we won't mention the fact that the modifier for Moving Target is probably broken too. It's completely counteracted by the dragon's size. Oh! how I regret ever bringing dragons into this discussion. My reasons were twofold: 1/ to show how crits can rob a scene of its epic drama. 2/ to show impact of crits on the world. Wonder why Tolkien didn't have Smaug iced by a hail of arrows? Firstly it's not dramatic. It might be quite comical if Smaug was taken down by a lucky shot from the town guard; but not very epic. Cheap shocks and fluke events don't generally make for lasting drama IMO. Secondly, if Smaug had been nailed by a hail of mundane arrows it would not seem realistic. The reader would be left wondering "So why the fuck has this not happened before?". This leads to the impact of crits on the world. Think of the dragon as a predator, like a lioness or a killer whale. It doesn't just sit in a 10x10 room waiting for the PCs to come along. It has a life. It goes hunting or whatever. It gets into (rather one-sided) combat relatively frequently. With RQ3 crits this is a problem - even if the prey only has a 1% of critting its attacker, the predator will be killed by a process of attrition. Over the months (or years, or centuries) the number of crits accumulate to a deadly level. Now, it's acceptable to glibly say "if a Runelord doesn't want to get critted he shouldn't fight so much". But a predator doesn't have this option. It fights to survive. And in the real world it's good at it. But in the Wonderful World of RQ3 Criticals even the oldest, lamest zebra gets to crit the lioness if it rolls 01%. This is where the absurdity lies. Lions would die within a year. Dragons might last a decade. > He's an old, wise dragon. The young clots _do_ get killed early. Ah, obviously I forgot that the ecology of the dragon was on a par with that of the may fly. Thousands are born but only the lucky few survive enough crits to become centuries old. :-) (Funny that these are the only ones that the PCs ever hear about.) I don't think so. The species survives because the chance of freak-death is remote enough that they get an opportunity to reproduce. Unfortunately RQ3 crits deny them this. Now, you can argue as much as you like about how a smart dragon can do This or That to avoid being critted by dumb humans. But this doesn't change the fact that any predator, such as a lioness, which hunts regularly *will* get critted too frequently by its prey (according to RQ3). The only explanation I've seen is that "crits don't happen so often when PCs aren't around". Which is a tad unfair for the PCs. Why fudge the rules when you can FIX them? Either criticals should be less frequent, or they should be less deadly. (The former option is probably more "realistic". Fluke hits are always *possible*, just not that probable.) ___ CW. ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:31:24 -0500 Subject: Re: posting for players From the responses I have been receiving both on this list and in personal email, I suppose I should say that: (1) I don't _need_ players, I have a faithful crew that have seen me through about four game systems, some of whom (parents of some of the others) are original RQ playtesters. (2) However, I'm always interested in new faces and new outlooks (which is why I'm posting here) and would like to see some others interested in the system revamp if they are close and have the time. CYA (maybe literally) Steve Perrin ------------------------------ End of RQ Rules Digest: V1 #174 ******************************* This is the bottom of the RuneQuest Rules Digest. RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark of Chaosium. With the exception of previously copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to archive unchanged for electronic retrieval. Send electronic mail to Majordomo@hops.wharton.upenn.edu with "help" in the body of the message for subscription information on this and other mailing lists. WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html