From: owner-rq-rules-digest To: rq-rules-digest@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Subject: RQ Rules Digest: V2 #31 Reply-To: rq-rules Errors-To: owner-rq-rules-digest Precedence: bulk Content-Return: Prohibited Return-Path: owner-rq-rules-digest RQ Rules Digest: Thursday, 10 August 1995 Volume 02 : Number 031 TABLE OF CONTENTS David Dunham spellcasting Robert McArthur 200% skills... Robert McArthur HQ David Cake HQ, Runic POW (Graydon) Crom Ages Graydon HQ, Runic POW (Graydon) RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. When paraphrasing you demonstrate exactly how well you understand the point someone was trying to make. 4. There is no number 4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dunham@hamachi.pensee.com (David Dunham) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:06:52 -0700 Subject: Re: spellcasting Nick Hollingsworth assumes >We have assumed that it is possible to cast a spell without being >able to speak, move or have access to your focuses. It just takes longer. >We are confident that this is the case because: >otherwise no spell casting by humans would be possible in the dark; >The blind would never be able to use magic; Your ally would not be >able to heal you if you were knocked unconcious; there are examples in the >books that imply it. >We have also assumed that you dont have to say anything to cast a spell. You must have a different impression of the dark than I do. I can speak and move in the dark, and I can feel the focus carved in my sword. And you're also assuming I have to concentrate by sensing -- it may be that just having it is enough (nowhere in the rules does it mention blindfolding). Your assumptions also go against the rules: "...it is possible to stop a shaman from casting magic by depriving him of his focus, his voice, or his free movement." [Magic Book, p. 12] These requirements don't seem to be true for priests, but sorcerers need "chant, gesture, and concentration" [MB.42]. David Dunham Pensee Corporation dunham@nw.pensee.com Voice/Fax 206 783 7404 http://www.pensee.com/dunham/ "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want." "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams ------------------------------ From: Robert McArthur Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 16:28:39 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: 200% skills... > How do you get a character with 200% skills? > > 1. Play RQ2 (5% increase per successful check roll) > 2. Play it for 15 years Well, 10 or so anyway... started with about 60% attack. > 3. Don't retire your PCs > 4. Play in a reasonable campaign with a death rate of WAY less than 10% > (Are you telling me that in your game a 5-player party has a dead > character every 2 adventures? And your players come back for this > week after week? This is a game. It is no fun if people die in > realistic percentages.) Agreed: Storm Bull (now) Rune Lord at - base 105% attack with 1H bastard sword - *2 Berserk attacking chaos (is there anything else?) - +20% bladesharp = 230% vs chaos (also happens to have a copper shard from the Copper Sands that adds 5 pt bladesharp aboveandbeyond against chaos, and a naaassssty little iron pole axe which was a sort-of-sharp piece of truestone instead of an axe-head... imagine what that's going to do to a chaos beasty! Sigh... That's all I can do since our group folded, imagine the results) Robert PS. I'll defend his rights to the above gained through hard work rather than Monty Haul (BTW. where did that phrase come from?) ------------------------------ From: Robert McArthur Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:30:50 +1000 (EST) Subject: HQ This is from the archives at http://www.icis.qut.edu.au/~mcarthur/rpg/ This work compiled by Stephen Martin 1994 APPENDIX: HEROQUESTS Note: Only two of the following "Heroquests" (Waha's Quest and Fragment 1645) were published by Greg Stafford (although Alebard's Quest is a write-up of a HQ run by Greg Stafford), but all provide some insight either into the Heroquest process or the world/myths of Glorantha. Some of the following are descriptions of a Heroquest run or story, rather than an actual quest. Some of these articles listed are among the most difficult to find. Quests listed in the Article listing or which were part of a scenario pack (a total of 6) are considered "official," and are marked here with (O). Other quests listed here are non-Gloranthan and/or unofficial. Quest/Article Source Author Alebard's Quest Alarums & Excursions 54 Bill Keyes Alebard's Quest(O) Tales of the Reaching Moon 5 Bill Keyes Ancestor Quest Tales of the Reaching Moon 3 Jon Quaife Asrelia's Hut (O) see Fragment 1645 Assassin/Anti-Chaos The Wild Hunt 41 Steve Marsh Berserkergang Path (O) Tales of the Reaching Moon 7 Sandy Petersen Black Fang Heroquest Runequest Digest (electronic) Steve Maurer Blue Boar Heroquest Tales of the Reaching Moon 7 Dave Dunham Blue Moon Heroquest Alarums & Excursions 46 Steve Marsh Darkbinding The Wild Hunt 42 Steve Marsh Dreamquest (O) Soloquest Alan LaVergne Drepnirquest The Wild Hunt 43, HeroQ. Rules Steve Marsh Elovere's Quest The Wild Hunt 57 Steve Marsh Five Foes Tales of the Reaching Moon 1 David Hall Fragment 1645 (O) Tales of the Reaching Moon 7 Greg Stafford Golden Barge Heroquest Tales of the Reaching Moon 4 Steve Gilham Hawkeye's History, Pt 6 The Wild Hunt 162 John T. Sapienza Hellmouth The Wild Hunt 38 Steve Marsh Hill of Gold The Wild Hunt 53 Steve Marsh Hill of Gold, Part II Alarums & Excursions 61 Steve Marsh Hill of Gold (comments) Alarums & Excursions 65 Steve Marsh Kinor/Blood God The Wild Hunt 39 Steve Marsh Old Hare Riddle Tales of the Reaching Moon 7 Jon Quaife Pavis Quest Different Worlds 45 Anthony Gresham Pyramid Text The Wild Hunt 50 Steve Marsh Renallian Breaker/BricksThe Wild Hunt 42 Steve Marsh River Ritual/Sun Folk(O)Sun County Troy Bankert/M. O'BSilver Fox Quest Tales of the Reaching Moon 7 David Hall Skygames The Wild Hunt 40 Steve Marsh Skygates The Wild Hunt 38 Steve Marsh Stonequest ??? Lance J. Purple Stormwalk The Wild Hunt 46 Steve Marsh Uleria Quest/Sacred Mar.The Wild Hunt 48 Steve Marsh Victor Garlend's JourneyThe Wild Hunt 52 Steve Marsh Waha's Quest (O) Different Worlds 4 Greg Stafford Web/Net-Weaver's Quest The Wild Hunt 55 Steve Marsh Robert McArthur ------------------------------ From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 18:07:56 +0800 Subject: Re: HQ, Runic POW (re: Graydon) > >Further cogitation sugguests to me that the analogy for heroquest results >is appropriately neither spells nor skills, but _treasure_. > Right on... >It varies widely, you have to do some checking to figure out just >precisely what it's worth, you can make it more valuable by doing specific >careful things to or with it, and it's an entity, which is important, >since the results of a heroquest seem to be presented as _things_, rather >than as something you get better at. > And I agree even more. Sometimes an abstract, vague sort of thing, but quite often a physical thing (like the Unbreakable Sword, or a Box of Darkness). Some heroquest abilities seem to be skills, but many most definately are not. >So, basically, a heroquest needs to be described by the each in terms of >what it allows that character to do, and how the experience changes the >character. I think not all heroquests end up granting heroic abilities. They all change the participants in some way, but this is just as likely to be represented as a change in personality or attitude rather than a general rule that going on a heroquest always lets you gain nifty abilities. > >The first is pretty easy - let's say a brand new Sword goes off on the >Quest of the Mostali's Whetstone, achieves it, and come back to the temple. > [Mostals Whetstone deleted] Nice idea. I realise that this is an off the cuff sort of thing, but I thought that I would comment on the description of the item - which is that it is quite unique. Quite often, I think, you can come up with quite good unique magic items that still are similar to existing ones. Extrapolate from crystal descriptions, for example - perhaps Mostals crystal is a Bladesharp crystal, with a POW, that acts like a Sensitivity crystal except it lets you cast bladesharps instead, and they always last until the end of the next fight? Not that I am intending to criticise the description (in game terms, much of a muchness, really) - more to point out that if you want to know what you can do with 'aspected POW', powered crystals are one good example of simple uses of it. Of course, saying that it is like a piece of Truestone, but one that is already full of a unique blade sharpening magic, is also a reasonable extrapolation. >Much more interesting is the question of 'what did it do to the Sword?' Well, what happened to him? To me, the important question is what aspects of the Swords character were tested on the quest, and what deeds did he perform, etc. rather than simply the nature of gift received. Take the Asrelias hut quest from fragment 1645 - do you think after completing this quest (which is primarily about fighting, and the climax is gambling, where you put up your abilities as stake and take a chance on a treasure from Asrelias jar, and you end uop with the treasures - fertility and wealth items) you end up with more fertility powers personally? That might be what you came back with, and why you went on the quest in the first place, but the fertility powers are for your tribe or lands - you, the hero, are probably only better at fighting earth things, and maybe minus some abilities, your personal fertility powers connections are not any better. >Well, in this case, what it means is that the Sword as acquired the >ability to raise up the aspect of the Sword-Sharpener; they have a mystic >understanding of how to make edged-weapons-with-hilts sharp. I'd express >this as a percentage bonus (about 20%, say) to Craft(bladesmith), >Evaluate when used on edged weapons, and anything else where the >aspect would apear to apply. In order to manifest that aspect, the >character has to do *something*; in this case, I'd say they have to >concentrate - make an INT x 3 roll - and if it doesn't work, that's it; >the extent of their understanding is imperfect, and that particular edged >weapon doesn't make sense to them in that way. This is addition to the >knack for sharpening things. Why not just give them a few extra points of Craft(bladesmith)? - if they increase at all. I have two questions here - the first is, if they are going to develop some ability with sword-sharpening, why bother with all this 'aspect' stuff - why can't they just gain some abilities to do with sword sharpening? The second is are they necessarily going to increase? How did they get the whetstone? If the quest involved learning at the hands of the previous owner, then they are better at it - maybe they even develop some Ki skill to do with sword sharpening themselves, and they can eventually learn some of the more powerful uses of the Mostali Whetstone, like being able to sharpen things that normally are not sharp. If the quest did not involve learning, then they don't - if in order to gain the whetstone, they simply lied or used violence, then all they get is the whetstone, and maybe they learnt something to do with fighting Mostali. [voria example] >In quantification terms, this one is a good deal harder; it's a >skill-dependent version of a Voria divine spell that costs a magic point >per flower, so it's using up the equivalent of a lot of magic points. Hmm. I would probably just say that the ability in question was to have the spell in effect whenever you make a sing roll - and make them pay for the magic points same as usual. Any heroquester worth their salt can get access to quite a few magic points pretty quickly, though - in this case, maybe the trees allow her to use theirs? Not that I really think play balance is effected either way in this case - but it is more precedents that I am worried about. Keeping magic costing magic points is a simple rule of thumb to stop nifty ideas from getting out of hand. Of course, if you think there is an Infinity rune connection there, then magic points might be there for the taking - but I would rather keep the Infinity rune right out of this for the meantime. >In general, I'd say contesting heroquestors compare the points of >magnitude in their powers on the resistance table when they're trying to >affect each other; Agreed, though perhaps this should add to the POW of the questor in some cicumstances? Reasons- - it means small number of points still are useful. - compare powered crystals, which often work this way. - it seems good to me - especially if it only acts this way sometimes (in some cases a personality trait roll might be needed, for example - some questers might only be able to use their fertility powers on something they love, or their death powers against something they hate) >note that our Humakti sword would have no direct >defense against someone trying to affect him with anything other than a >death-truth rune pair. > Not so sure about this bit - isn't this getting both overly specific, and overly Runic (ie Gloranthan). If you have to keep separate track of your Death-Truth POW, your Death-Air POW, and presumably your Death-Air-Beast POW, and all of it is only useful in very limited circumstances, then things could get pretty bad. I prefer something with both more categories, but a more fluid interpretation. >I'd sugguest that this is what the mastery rune is good for - general >defence against the powers of other heroquesters, no matter which rune(s) >they power is based on, and probably also allowing you to combine >heroquest powers (of magnitudes up to that of your magnitude of >connection with the mastery rune.) > Sounds overly mechanistic, to me. I would prefer that combining powers in clever ways is not about the Mastery rune, but about being wise, clever, and knowing a magical trick or two. I really will try and get something written down in the next few days, to put my ideas on all of this into some semblance of order. Cheers Dave >Comments? > >saundrsg@qlink.queensu.ca | Monete me si non anglice loquobar. > > > > ------------------------------ From: crom@erinet.com (Crom) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 10:56:18 -0400 Subject: Ages Anyone worked out ages for the standard PC races besides human? I can't believe suggestions aren't given in the rules. We aren't supposed to assume that all races have the same lifespan, are we?!?!? >> CRoM << crom@erinet.crom 'Then I said: "You all wished me to arouse the blade and use it. Now, I think, we begin to understand the consequences. The Black Sword must be fed. It will feed on friends if it cannot feed on enemies..."' --Michael Moorcock, Silver Warriors ------------------------------ From: Graydon Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: HQ, Runic POW (re: Graydon) On Thu, 10 Aug 1995, David Cake wrote: > Some heroquest abilities seem to be skills, but many most definately > are not. I think the skills come fairly neatly under the 'how it changes you' half of things; sometimes you learn enough to have a start on a skill, generally you come back with a thing. > >So, basically, a heroquest needs to be described by the each in terms of > >what it allows that character to do, and how the experience changes the > >character. > I think not all heroquests end up granting heroic abilities. They > all change the participants in some way, but this is just as likely to be > represented as a change in personality or attitude rather than a general > rule that going on a heroquest always lets you gain nifty abilities. The answers to those two questions are sometimes appropriately 'nothing' and 'not noticeably', yes. I think the majority of first Heroquests end in a dead quester, myself. (Probably not the _large_ majority; I figure a survival rate of about 40% or so.) > [Mostals Whetstone deleted] > Nice idea. I realise that this is an off the cuff sort of thing, but > I thought that I would comment on the description of the item - which is > that it is quite unique. Quite often, I think, you can come up with quite > good unique magic items that still are similar to existing ones. Extrapolate > from crystal descriptions, for example - perhaps Mostals crystal is a > Bladesharp crystal, with a POW, that acts like a Sensitivity crystal except > it lets you cast bladesharps instead, and they always last until the end of > the next fight? Not that I am intending to criticise the description (in > game terms, much of a muchness, really) - more to point out that if you want > to know what you can do with 'aspected POW', powered crystals are one good > example of simple uses of it. > Of course, saying that it is like a piece of Truestone, but one that > is already full of a unique blade sharpening magic, is also a reasonable > extrapolation. While the general advice for creating magic items is good, I am strongly of the opinion that the sharp, crisp divisions between the three systems of magic are in some sense cultural artifacts and in another sense God Learner meddling, and that tangible-reality magic is the produce of the interaction of the _entire_ Hero/Godplane with itself to create the tangible reality. Things brought back are small pieces, which makes them much narrower, but it also makes them very differently constrained. In the specific case, Mostal is the present source of the Stasis Rune, which makes me think that there ought to be a fair amount of truestone kicking arond in its part of the Godplane. Truestone comes in all sorts of flavours as far as texture and apparent type goes, so I was thinking of a piece of truestone that looked like a traditional scythe stone - about 40 cm long, 5 cm wide, 3 cm thick, tapered to both ends from the middle, and made of a fine sandstone, and that was basically really just the platonic ideal of a whetstone. Which, of course, you had to learn how to use, but there was not necessarily any magic, as such, involved at all. > Why not just give them a few extra points of Craft(bladesmith)? - if > they increase at all. 'Cause I'm trying to represent a change in perception - by completing the quest, they partake a bit in the peculiar perceptions of the Sword-sharpener. > I have two questions here - the first is, if they are going to > develop some ability with sword-sharpening, why bother with all this > 'aspect' stuff - why can't they just gain some abilities to do with sword > sharpening? The second is are they necessarily going to increase? Because they may do other heroquests. Take, for example, the Asrelia's Hut example you mention - I agree with your basic point, that what you're doing is bringing back something for your folk in the way of wealth and fertility and suchlike, but consider who went on the thing. If the tribe sends its best quester, who happens to be an Orlanth adveterous type, who comes back with a really mighty field-blessing and a personal understanding of how to propitate earth things, can that person use their earth understanding at the same time as their various Storm-related powers from previous heroquests? I'd say, welll, it's _difficult_ - hence wanting the person to have to raise specific aspects to use the powers. You could maybe get two at once, but three or more? Your head would explode. > How did they get the whetstone? If the quest involved learning at the hands > of the previous owner, then they are better at it - maybe they even develop > some Ki skill to do with sword sharpening themselves, and they can > eventually learn some of the more powerful uses of the Mostali Whetstone, > like being able to sharpen things that normally are not sharp. If the quest > did not involve learning, then they don't - if in order to gain the > whetstone, they simply lied or used violence, then all they get is the > whetstone, and maybe they learnt something to do with fighting Mostali. The quest I was thinking of, they just pick the thing up; that hard parts are getting there (the terrain is rocky for sufficently ridiculous values of rocky), selecting the right rock to pick up, and in convincing the Mostali to teach you how to sharpen swords properly. I'm also taking the stance that using the ideal of something does not come naturally to a person, and, like spirit spells, you have to a mystical entity put it in your head, you don't get better with practice. > case - but it is more precedents that I am worried about. Keeping magic > costing magic points is a simple rule of thumb to stop nifty ideas from > getting out of hand. It is, but I happen to think that particular spell is ridiculously expensive in terms of MP. I also think that 'magic', in the familiar systematic sense in the rules, is not necessarily what the heroquest powers are. > Of course, if you think there is an Infinity rune connection there, > then magic points might be there for the taking - but I would rather keep > the Infinity rune right out of this for the meantime. I find it quite suspicious that Arachne Solara is the source of the Magic, Infinity, and Mastery runes; I suspect that the three of them are the runes that explain how everything else is put together/interacts. I really can't see requiring the Infinity rune for personal immortality, but I thought it might well related to the endlessness of the seasons - spring will come again sort of thing. > >In general, I'd say contesting heroquestors compare the points of > >magnitude in their powers on the resistance table when they're trying to > >affect each other; > Agreed, though perhaps this should add to the POW of the questor in > some cicumstances? > Reasons- > - it means small number of points still are useful. > - compare powered crystals, which often work this way. It also means that shamans are immune to small heroquesters. (Not sure that's a bad idea; shamanic initiation is quite arguably the commonest HQ going.) I'm dubious on the general grounds that HQ powers are of a different order than plain magic; your defense should also be different. I can definately see resisting with a characteristic, or with accumulated otherness of some description, but *not* directly with things like 'points of Rune spells' or 'size of fetch'; that's reducing HQ powers to a kind of magic, with I don't see as appropriate. > - it seems good to me - especially if it only acts this way > sometimes (in some cases a personality trait roll might be needed, for > example - some questers might only be able to use their fertility powers on > something they love, or their death powers against something they hate) I don't use quantified personality traits in the game I run; can't see the point. (I do feel free to tell players that their character is proposing to do something implausible, at which I am balking, but quantifying character is a lot like quantifying how good a problem solver the character is - why bother with numbers, the _player_ is the control) I don't disagree with the _idea_ of restricting the generality of HQ powers in that sort of way, though. > >note that our Humakti sword would have no direct > >defense against someone trying to affect him with anything other than a > >death-truth rune pair. > Not so sure about this bit - isn't this getting both overly > specific, and overly Runic (ie Gloranthan). If you have to keep separate > track of your Death-Truth POW, your Death-Air POW, and presumably your > Death-Air-Beast POW, and all of it is only useful in very limited > circumstances, then things could get pretty bad. I prefer something with > both more categories, but a more fluid interpretation. I don't particularly like that, either, but raw magnitude leads to exponential growth in HQter grossness as they accumulate magnitude of connection, and I can't see any other mechanism than to say 'this is your magnitude of connection to X'. X doesn't have to be a rune - it could be a lot of things - a _real_ rune (the Elder Futhark), station of the Cross, leaf of the Quabalistic tree, etc. > >I'd sugguest that this is what the mastery rune is good for - general > >defence against the powers of other heroquesters, no matter which rune(s) > >they power is based on, and probably also allowing you to combine > >heroquest powers (of magnitudes up to that of your magnitude of > >connection with the mastery rune.) > Sounds overly mechanistic, to me. I would prefer that combining > powers in clever ways is not about the Mastery rune, but about being wise, > clever, and knowing a magical trick or two. Not a mechanism, just a limit. If you've got a 4 magnitude connection to the Mastery Rune, you can't get more than 4 magnitude of other powers connected to each other, no matter how clever you are, but if you're not clever at all, you don't get to say 'I invoke the mastery rune, Shazam!, this stuff happens.' The Magic rune is the rune of connection; Mastery is the Rune of self-knowledge, and I can make a case for either being used to connect things. (If you want them to *stay* connected in 'unnatural' ways, that's where the Infinity Rune comes in.) I think Mastery makes more sense as a defensive facilitator than Magic. saundrsg@qlink.queensu.ca | Monete me si non anglice loquobar. ------------------------------ End of RQ Rules Digest: V2 #31 ****************************** This is the bottom of the RuneQuest Rules Digest. RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark of Chaosium. 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